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Kaggath Series: Darth Traya vs Revan

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
Kaggath Series: Darth Traya vs Revan

MasterMe's Avatar


MasterMe
11.27.2012 , 05:35 PM | #51
Quote: Originally Posted by Rayla_Felana View Post
Then Traya is down one pawn and Revan is down half of his command structure, his effectiveness just took a big hit.



But Revan hasn't turned his men yet, they have never even been to Malachor V, Traya would be able to easily cripple his chain of command and remove his best generals, etc... leavimg him with no way to properly command his vast forces, it turns into a war of attrition where Revan's forces aren't going to get their supplies when needed, he isn't going to be around to command all of them at the same time AND his men are going to be wondering where entire divisions disappeared to overnight.

Revan is currently in a logistical nightmare that Traya will only ever make worse, his best generals/admirals were part of the reason he was so successful, then when Jedi start filling up Traya's forces, she starts have the force user numbers advantage, with Jedi turning to the Malachor teachigngs that had the Jedi destroyed in the first place.

Basically, the size of Revan's fleet is it's weakness, eventually he will be left with two choices, go turtle mode or attack full on, the first idea won't work because Traya would have already ground down the forces that Revan commanded, the second leads to the utter destruction of his fleet.

Revan is the Erwin Rommel here, but Traya is the Albert Speer, she can make something out of nothing.
Well, I strongly disagree with you, and in past posts I've already explained why. I won't bother repeating myself.

Rayla_Felana's Avatar


Rayla_Felana
11.27.2012 , 05:37 PM | #52
Quote: Originally Posted by Warren-Stride View Post
Multiple Hammerhead Cruisers is not the Republic fleet.
No they are not, but the Ravager took out all of them single-handedly.

Quote: Originally Posted by Warren-Stride View Post
The Jedi Exile and Mandos destroyed one ship. What about the rest of the fleet? Unless Traya's fleet is only one ship...?
They destroyed the Ravager, which was the most advanced ship in the Republic fleet, it was thrown off the production line very quickly and sent to the frontlines of Dxun, where it crippled five Mandalorian cruisers, only a couple of these Centurion classes were ever built and they were the heavyweights in the Republic defence fleets, namely in the Inner rim, the Ravager as I stated earlier was the most advanced of these.

It is actually the best ship yet constructed and is capable of the same role as an Imperial II class Star Destroyer, not with quite the same firepower, but then again it is not fighting against Mon Calamari cruisers is it?

Then consider the fact that the fleet consisted of the remnants of the Star Forge fleet, each of these being extremely powerful, the same ships that battered the Republic fleet during the Jedi Civil War.

Then consider that the bulk of Revan's fleet was merely Hammerhead cruisers and you begin to see the point.

Warren-Stride's Avatar


Warren-Stride
11.27.2012 , 05:40 PM | #53
Quote: Originally Posted by BlazingShadow View Post
1) Nihilus' powerbase is Traya's powerbase. Though we cannot use Nihilus, his forces are still hers both at the beginning and the end of the Sith Triumverate.

2) Meetra Surik cannot be used, and the only reason she was able to defeat the Sith Assassins was because of her insensitivity to the force. That is explained after her first encounter with the assassins aboard the harbinger.
P.S. Yes it does. Learn a bit of Military history, paranoia, sleep deprivation, terrorism all have huge psychological impacts on wars.

3) Darth Traya has both Nihilus and Darth Sion on her side, as well as their power bases. We aren't allowed to use the other two Sith Lords but we are allowed access to their power bases. If this were a valid argument then I could also argue that Revan has no allies because his forces become darksiders and eventually he's just a hermit on a Rakata super weapon with just a few Jedi and Republic supporters.

4) No. Deception, betrayal, -stealth- are all effective weapons during wartime. She is the Lord of Betrayals because she has been betrayed, betrayed much more than she betrays, in fact. She is a cunning sith, her mind is her greatest asset, not her shtick for betrayal.

5) Yes, assassins because of their ability to easily kill Force Adepts, Meetra excluded because of her condition. This is a hypothetical battle scenario, meaning we can cut out the hesitation, cut out her fondness for Revan. At any rate, even if that were a valid point, everything Traya has done has been deliberate and without hesitation. Her decisiveness is one of her more memorable qualities.

She was the death of the Jedi Order and Revan's teacher. More than a match for him.
1.) Right, sorry, I got that now. I made assumptions, sorry. Unfortunately, as I said, Revan's fleet would easily destroy Traya's. We've actually seen the Republic defeat it before, at Telos.

2.) I have yet to see how Revan is to be affected by these assassins. He is very strong willed himself, and particulary immune to the effects of fear (as per Wookieepedia). How do thses assassins work? If it's a battle of willpoweer, Revan will win every time.
P.S. Let me rephrase: psychological impacts don't loose wars.

3.) What are those two Lord's powerbases? I was under the impression that they're one and the same... Sion didn't have any troops, and Nihlius's fleet belonged to Traya... Revan still has far more resources and allies.

4.) While deception, betrayal, and stealth are nice, they won't win a war against an army like the Republic's. If Traya had a fleet that could stand up to Revan's, then she might have an advantage. But trying to counter a forward assault with an underhand stragegy won't turn out well if you have no troops to buy time.

5.) I still think Revan's willpower would win over assassins. As for Traya, She loved the Exile. I'm sure she loved Revan too. Traya hestitated long enough to have a conversation with Meetra, I'm sure she would want to talk to Revan before she tried to kill/sever him too.

MasterMe's Avatar


MasterMe
11.27.2012 , 05:43 PM | #54
Quote: Originally Posted by Warren-Stride View Post
1.) Right, sorry, I got that now. I made assumptions, sorry. Unfortunately, as I said, Revan's fleet would easily destroy Traya's. We've actually seen the Republic defeat it before, at Telos.

2.) I have yet to see how Revan is to be affected by these assassins. He is very strong willed himself, and particulary immune to the effects of fear (as per Wookieepedia). How do thses assassins work? If it's a battle of willpoweer, Revan will win every time.
P.S. Let me rephrase: psychological impacts don't loose wars.

3.) What are those two Lord's powerbases? I was under the impression that they're one and the same... Sion didn't have any troops, and Nihlius's fleet belonged to Traya... Revan still has far more resources and allies.

4.) While deception, betrayal, and stealth are nice, they won't win a war against an army like the Republic's. If Traya had a fleet that could stand up to Revan's, then she might have an advantage. But trying to counter a forward assault with an underhand stragegy won't turn out well if you have no troops to buy time.

5.) I still think Revan's willpower would win over assassins. As for Traya, She loved the Exile. I'm sure she loved Revan too. Traya hestitated long enough to have a conversation with Meetra, I'm sure she would want to talk to Revan before she tried to kill/sever him too.
Oh she did love Revan! She thought very highly of him, as she displayed several times in KOTOR 2.

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Warren-Stride
11.27.2012 , 05:45 PM | #55
Quote: Originally Posted by Rayla_Felana View Post
No they are not, but the Ravager took out all of them single-handedly.



They destroyed the Ravager, which was the most advanced ship in the Republic fleet, it was thrown off the production line very quickly and sent to the frontlines of Dxun, where it crippled five Mandalorian cruisers, only a couple of these Centurion classes were ever built and they were the heavyweights in the Republic defence fleets, namely in the Inner rim, the Ravager as I stated earlier was the most advanced of these.

It is actually the best ship yet constructed and is capable of the same role as an Imperial II class Star Destroyer, not with quite the same firepower, but then again it is not fighting against Mon Calamari cruisers is it?

Then consider the fact that the fleet consisted of the remnants of the Star Forge fleet, each of these being extremely powerful, the same ships that battered the Republic fleet during the Jedi Civil War.

Then consider that the bulk of Revan's fleet was merely Hammerhead cruisers and you begin to see the point.
Did it take them out by itself? I'm not so sure.... do you have a source?


I think you're missing my point. Traya's fleet was defeated at Telos. In KOTORII. The Ravager was just one ship. The others were destroyed by Republic forces. And this was at a time when the Republic was weaker than during Revan's time.

I think Telos proves that Revan's fleet would be more than a match for Traya's, even with the Ravager.

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
11.27.2012 , 05:54 PM | #56
Quote: Originally Posted by Warren-Stride View Post
Did it take them out by itself? I'm not so sure.... do you have a source?


I think you're missing my point. Traya's fleet was defeated at Telos. In KOTORII. The Ravager was just one ship. The others were destroyed by Republic forces. And this was at a time when the Republic was weaker than during Revan's time.

I think Telos proves that Revan's fleet would be more than a match for Traya's, even with the Ravager.
Once the Ravager fell, the rest of the ships were destroyed. The Ravager would have secured victory in the space battle of Telos if it weren't for the actions of Meetra and Mandalore.
Added Chapter 40 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

Rayla_Felana's Avatar


Rayla_Felana
11.27.2012 , 05:55 PM | #57
Quote: Originally Posted by Warren-Stride View Post
Did it take them out by itself? I'm not so sure.... do you have a source?
'Unseen, Unheard' Star Wars Tales 24


Quote: Originally Posted by Warren-Stride View Post
I think you're missing my point. Traya's fleet was defeated at Telos. In KOTORII. The Ravager was just one ship. The others were destroyed by Republic forces. And this was at a time when the Republic was weaker than during Revan's time.

I think Telos proves that Revan's fleet would be more than a match for Traya's, even with the Ravager.
Actually the battle is listed as a stalemate until the Ravager, the Triumvirate's capital ship is destroyed along with the commander Darth Nihilus, this sends the fleet into disarray.

Oh and just to clear something up, there were three powerbases in the Triumvirate: Sion's cult of assassins, Nihilus' fleet which was a vast collection of ships that joined the Sith at Malachor following the war, which also contained Interdictor class warships and the large prototype of the Centurion class, with random Sith and assassins, along with warbeasts making up the bulk of his forces, then Traya's powerbase which is made up of all remaining Sith and Dark Jedi, a lot of them.

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steaktrooper
11.27.2012 , 05:59 PM | #58
I don't even have to read everything, I already know this is gonna come down to MasterMe and Aurbere

Too bad I didn't get here earlier, I wanted to say "Let the Fanboy Games begin!"
Lembar Romdoro Agenros Cavteff
Sith Covenant / Jedi Covenant @ The Harbinger

Warren-Stride's Avatar


Warren-Stride
11.27.2012 , 05:59 PM | #59
Quote: Originally Posted by Rayla_Felana View Post
Actually the battle is listed as a stalemate until the Ravager, the Triumvirate's capital ship is destroyed along with the commander Darth Nihilus, this sends the fleet into disarray.
If Nihllius is not in the battle then his fleet is in disarray? If he's not allowed in this Kaggath his fleet seems useless then.

Rayla_Felana's Avatar


Rayla_Felana
11.27.2012 , 06:01 PM | #60
Quote: Originally Posted by Warren-Stride View Post
If Nihllius is not in the battle then his fleet is in disarray? If he's not allowed in this Kaggath his fleet seems useless then.
I mean the commander was killed, just like in any other battle, if your commander is killed, the fleet doesn't know what to do with itself and either flees or gets destroyed.

You took my statement too literally.