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Kaggath Series: Darth Traya vs Revan

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
Kaggath Series: Darth Traya vs Revan

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
11.29.2012 , 09:07 PM | #301
Quote: Originally Posted by Airmo View Post
Yeessss...but they did fight! in the space battle.."fight which implies battle" Revan just doesn't have to deliver the killing blow. ..NOW I AM FINISHED. lol

I think we should see Han Solo vs Deadeye Duncan.
But poor Deadeye doesn't have a power base. And Han would shoot first. It wouldn't matter if Deadeye drew his blaster first, he always drops it!

I think a good battle would be Grand Moff Tarkin vs. Grand Moff Kilran. Who would emerge victorious in the ultimate test of Moffiness?
Added Chapter 41 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

BlazingShadow's Avatar


BlazingShadow
11.29.2012 , 10:21 PM | #302
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
This has been a great debate and not a flame war (although someone did make a useless personal attack against me).

I would just like to note that Traya can't engage Revan because she has no means of escaping Malachor. She's trapped there and since the rules of the Kaggath state that someone has to die, Revan has to go to her. While in a "real world" situation, Revan could just leave and let Traya die there. The rules state that this is a battle and such an ending doesn't make for a Kaggath. Since this is a Kaggath, they have to fight or someone has to surrender. Neither of them are going to surrender so they have to fight. And since Traya can't leave Malachor, Revan has to go to her.

Anyway, great debate with you all. I'm surprised this didn't erupt into a flame war like any other Revan thread.
I disagree with this. Honestly, I disagree with making Malachor V any sort of final stand, to immediately retreat to your fortress is foolhardy at best, but I must absolutely disagree with the idea that Malachor V is

A) a stalemate in any non-kaggath situation
B) Without escape for Traya's forces

She is trapped on a planet, not just a surrounded building. Malachor itself is her fortress because the Republic cannot effectively maintain a ground presence due to the elements and defenses of the academy. Given that she is on a planet, and her reign supposedly stops beyond that planet, I argue that there are literally infinite directions and infinite possibilities for Traya's forces to escape from the planet, and that is supported by canon as there are quite a few examples in Star Wars of breakable blockades, and we know that Malachor V's atmosphere can be successfully negotiated by spacecraft as evidenced by the -ending- of Kotor 2 and the fact that those who trained on M5 obviously can leave M5, so no, I disagree that M5 is a complete death trap, for Traya's forces anyways. I don't dispute Revan losing, I dispute the possibility of a stalemate and a blockade, particularly a fool-proof one, and I dispute a ground-conflict being the only scenario for Revan's defeat... but most importantly, this is to disprove the notion of a stalemate:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FpN4wl74CuE watch from the beginning
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3Ftl0nslqY watch from 1:50 onward.

M5 is a starship graveyard, with tons and tons of wreckage and debris orbiting the rock, reaching quite a distance beyond the planet, a distance greater than Malak's ships, already proven superior to Revan's, orbited Taris. Both the elements and debris encase the heart of M5, making scans nigh-impossible on the surface, but you may be leaving out the idea that electrical interference from the planet and the debris may also make it difficult for Revan's forces to accurately monitor anything coming out of M5, traveling amongst the debris. Where am I going with this? Boarding parties... sneaking on using small, drifting shuttles, pulling "Han"s, evading sensors and steadily, stealthily boarding their, particularly stray ships... now imagine we were allowed a stalemate, how many support ships, how many shuttles will hop from ship-to-ship within Revan's fleet? Like a virus, those assassins can board and wait... and as Revan's forces monitor Malachor, Traya's assassins monitor Revan, monitor his ships, monitor their patterns, their movements, their security, their personnel... you see where I am going with this.

Time would not be on Revan's side. Malachor's surrounded by wreckage, making maneuvering large, bulky vessels near-impossible without them taking damage or taking on boarders.

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
11.29.2012 , 10:28 PM | #303
Quote: Originally Posted by BlazingShadow View Post
I disagree with this. Honestly, I disagree with making Malachor V any sort of final stand, to immediately retreat to your fortress is foolhardy at best, but I must absolutely disagree with the idea that Malachor V is

A) a stalemate in any non-kaggath situation
B) Without escape for Traya's forces

She is trapped on a planet, not just a surrounded building. Malachor itself is her fortress because the Republic cannot effectively maintain a ground presence due to the elements and defenses of the academy. Given that she is on a planet, and her reign supposedly stops beyond that planet, I argue that there are literally infinite directions for Traya's forces to escape from the planet, and that is supported by canon there are quite a few examples in Star Wars of breakable blockades, and we know that Malachor V can be successfully negotiated by spacecraft as evidenced by the -ending- of Kotor 2 and the fact that anyone trained on M5 has indeed leave M5, so no, I disagree that M5 is a complete death trap, for Traya's forces anyways. I don't dispute Revan losing, I dispute the possibility of a stalemate and a blockade, particularly a fool-proof one, and I dispute a ground-conflict being the only scenario for Revan's defeat... but most importantly, this is to disprove the notion of a stalemate:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FpN4wl74CuE watch from the beginning
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3Ftl0nslqY watch from 1:50 onward.

M5 is a starship graveyard, with tons and tons of wreckage and debris orbiting the rock, reaching quite a distance beyond the planet, a distance greater than Malak's ships, already proven superior to Revan's, orbited Taris. Both the elements and debris encase the heart of M5, making scans nigh-impossible on the surface, but you may be leaving out the idea that electrical interference from the planet and the debris may also make it nigh-impossible for Revan's forces to accurately monitor anything coming out of M5. Where am I going with this? Boarding parties... sneaking on using small, drifting shuttles, pulling "Han"s, evading sensors and steadily, stealthily boarding their, particularly stray ships... now imagine we were allowed a stalemate, how many support ships, how many shuttles will hop from ship-to-ship within Revan's fleet? Like a virus, those assassins can board and wait... and as Revan's forces monitor Malachor, Traya's assassins monitor Revan, monitor his ships, monitor their patterns, their movements, their security, their personnel... you see where I am going with this.

Time would not be on Revan's side. Malachor's surrounded by wreckage, and it is a given that the Sith would have quite a few shuttles here and there, much smaller than the debris.
That's actually a good point. I was under the impression that Traya's shuttles and such would be destroyed along with her fleet. I had forgotten about other shuttles. You paint a very interesting picture. A scenario that could very well happen. I had discussed how a "stalemate" would only play into Traya's hands, this scenario proves it.

You've covered all of the bases. I don't see a counter argument for this one.
Added Chapter 41 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

BlazingShadow's Avatar


BlazingShadow
11.29.2012 , 10:40 PM | #304
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
That's actually a good point. I was under the impression that Traya's shuttles and such would be destroyed along with her fleet. I had forgotten about other shuttles. You paint a very interesting picture. A scenario that could very well happen. I had discussed how a "stalemate" would only play into Traya's hands, this scenario proves it.

You've covered all of the bases. I don't see a counter argument for this one.
That's the problem with commanding a massive force or exerting -any- imperialist policies: You're like a herd of wildabeasts vulnerable to the Pride once you encroach on their territory. I'll take force-eating assassins and a cadre of elite, veteran Sith forces in the heart of a darkside nexus over the largest fleet any day.

And no- not all shuttles would be destroyed, that's silly. How would she have gotten her forces on the ground?

Even with one shuttle Sith could still perforate through the Republic fleet, you just need that one stray ship to board and sneak off, or use space suits which, as I remember, are quite common in Kotor and the clone wars.

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
11.29.2012 , 10:43 PM | #305
Quote: Originally Posted by BlazingShadow View Post
That's the problem with commanding a massive force or exerting -any- imperialist policies: You're like a herd of wildabeasts vulnerable to the Pride once you encroach on their territory. I'll take force-eating assassins and a cadre of elite, veteran Sith forces in the heart of a darkside nexus over the largest fleet any day.
Same here. This is like the rebels vs. the Empire. The Empire has the big stuff, but the rebels have the best stuff for the situation. Revan may have the bigger numbers, but Traya has it where it counts. That's what matters. The problem with blockading a planet is that you can't make it air-tight. Smugglers break through blockades all the time.
Added Chapter 41 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

Swarlesx's Avatar


Swarlesx
11.29.2012 , 11:56 PM | #306
hmm. Traya does have the advantage of assassins and M5 as her base. But Revan has an army and the Revanchist. The assassins would be useful but I don't think they alone would give the win. In order for it to be Traya victory Revan would have to make some mistakes. I think Revan would be able to prolong the fighting despite Trayas assassins.

But honestly I think we should be using Darth Revan and his sith empire for this Topic. I think that would a much more interesting match up.

Necrosaro's Avatar


Necrosaro
11.30.2012 , 12:21 AM | #307
Lets play with a few numbers here, I will make up some numbers but I am just using them as examples not as actual fact. I am going to use KOTOR 2 as a measuring guide.

Lets say that Traya has about 500 assassins. (probably being generous here) and with Scion and Nihilus' lets add like 10,000 soldiers and 100 Dark Jedi. That is wonderful for one or two battlefields but honestly she really can't fight more then that at once, just not possible with her very limited resources. She also has to steal things like, food, water, ammo, missiles etc. Lets also be generous about her fleet size, she has 1 battleship and lets say 20 interdictor ships. Each with a full compliment of fighters, so probably a few hundred of them.
Traya admits to us that she isn't a leader, nor is she a military commander, she is not going to know how to effectively defeat an enemy army or fleet. She can fight people, maybe a single battle but really that is about it. She isn't going to inspire anyone nor is she going to plan defenses or attacks.

Now Revan, he had a third of the Republic's military. Now lets say that the Republic army is really small, and is only like 900 million soldiers. (remember the Republic is hundreds of thousands of planets and has to have an army that can defend at least most of them) and Revan now has 300 million soldiers and probably at minimum tens of thousands of star ships if nor over a hundred thousand. With hundreds of thousands of fighters. Plus lets say Revan has around 300 Jedi, mostly Padawan's maybe 50 of them are Jedi Knights and 5 of them Masters (remember I believe Master Kavar joined the effort against the mandaorians, nothing to suggest he had to be the only Jedi Master who did.
Reven has planets which supply him with fresh soldiers, supplies and equipment. So he will never really run out of anything and anything he does lose can be replaced without too much difficulty.

Now for the two to fight, lets say those 500 assassins can kill 1,000 soldiers each before being killed. (being VERY generous here with that number) that is 500,000 soldiers gone leaving Revan with 2.5 million more.

Now most of Traya's Dark Jedi are mostly the equivalent of Knights and Masters, they can probably outmatch the Padawan's that mostly consist of Revan's Jedi, however with the endless supply of Republic Soldiers backing them up, they will simply be overwhelmed in time, however the Jedi force would also pretty much be exterminated there.

Fleet wise, almost no matter what Traya's force does it is screwed. It has no was of sustaining itself. It can do hit and run tactics but it always has to be on the move, picking at the Republic force at it's weak points just like the Rebellion did. However people forget that the Empire did ambush the rebellion sometimes too, sometimes the Rebellion was forced into a straight up fight and in those situations they generally lost, not always but there is a reason why Hit and Fade attacks were the rebellion's MO.
Traya doesn't have the numbers, any losses she takes are a major blow to her while Revan can shrug off most defeats. "Oh I lost 20 Hammerheads but we took out 2 Interdictors? oh well who cares?" He just lost an insignificant force and she just lost 10% of her fleet which she has no way of replacing.

Traya also has to be out and about to corrupt Revan's forces, she has to be traveling around infiltrating his fleets, she needs spies for that to find the best people to corrupt. She isn't going to corrupt entire crews, she will corrupt people. She cannot be everywhere at once and wherever she isn't her forces will lose by simple attrition.

Revan also learns and adapts to enemy tactics, she will corrupt some people, she will gain a dozen capital ships, and he will learn. he will sacrifice fleets to draw her forces out to destroy them. She isn't a commander, she isn't a strategist, she will most likely fall into traps and her forces will pay for that.

Scale is the issue here, there is simply no way for a tiny force with out any resources to defeat a massive resource rich force.

Now if this was Revan vs Vader then Revan would be done for, however putting him against Traya is just being cruel to an old woman.

Like I said in the begining, I just pulled those numbers out my butt, however scale wise it would be something like that, no matter the size of Traya's forces Revan' force would be 100,000 times larger and she is just one woman who needs time to travel to different places to corrupt people and by the time she is even half way done with her corrupt people 2012 tour her entire army would be a smoking ruin. In my opinion of course, if someone can show me how she can gain the numbers to actually pull this off I will happily admit my wrongness. I just don't see how her limited assassin supply can do that much damage to a force so many times larger, space is big and it takes a long time to travel. They can only do so much to an army so big.

NasalJack's Avatar


NasalJack
11.30.2012 , 04:17 AM | #308
That's exactly what I've been thinking, that the scale of their forces is simply not a match for each other. Revan has the clear, insurmountable advantage in terms of pure resources. You setting numbers to it, even if those numbers are made up they are in the general ball-park in terms of the scale differences, serves more effectively to demonstrate that point than anything I could think to say.

And that's really what it comes down to. The Kaggath sets up what is supposed to be a military conflict between a fully realized military power with an experienced leader and an organization that is completely ill-equipped to be anything of the sort and a non-military leader. There's nothing wrong with Kreia or her methods in the normal scheme of things, but battle like this is CLEARLY not her strength.

I think only the best of Kreia in the areas where she excels, but with the conflict as presented in the OP it is absolutely ridiculous to think she had even a fighting chance.

Warren-Stride's Avatar


Warren-Stride
11.30.2012 , 06:49 AM | #309
Addressing Resources:

Remember that the Kaggath takes place in the known galaxy.
If Traya gets surrounded on Malachor Five, what's happening in the rest of the galaxy?

Revan controls 1/3 of the Republic fleet, and therefor has the support of the Republic. With no other major powers in play (besides Traya) the Republic and could easily conquer pretty much the entire galaxy, considering that the only world Traya would be left defending is M5. Revan's forces alone could conquer the rest of the known galaxy while still holding M5, and even with the assassins-killing-people senario.

So basically, it would be the entire galaxy's worth of worlds against one planet.

There's nothing in the rules about Revan's powerbase not being able to expand during the course of the Kaggath, and that's what would happen if Traya was forced back to her fortress. With trillions of subjects and a galaxy worth of wealth and support, Revan could just chunk ships at M5 and hope one hits the Academy.

Stealth Assassins cannot defeat the known galaxy.

MasterMe's Avatar


MasterMe
11.30.2012 , 07:20 AM | #310
Quote: Originally Posted by BlazingShadow View Post
I disagree with this. Honestly, I disagree with making Malachor V any sort of final stand, to immediately retreat to your fortress is foolhardy at best, but I must absolutely disagree with the idea that Malachor V is

A) a stalemate in any non-kaggath situation
B) Without escape for Traya's forces

She is trapped on a planet, not just a surrounded building. Malachor itself is her fortress because the Republic cannot effectively maintain a ground presence due to the elements and defenses of the academy. Given that she is on a planet, and her reign supposedly stops beyond that planet, I argue that there are literally infinite directions and infinite possibilities for Traya's forces to escape from the planet, and that is supported by canon as there are quite a few examples in Star Wars of breakable blockades, and we know that Malachor V's atmosphere can be successfully negotiated by spacecraft as evidenced by the -ending- of Kotor 2 and the fact that those who trained on M5 obviously can leave M5, so no, I disagree that M5 is a complete death trap, for Traya's forces anyways. I don't dispute Revan losing, I dispute the possibility of a stalemate and a blockade, particularly a fool-proof one, and I dispute a ground-conflict being the only scenario for Revan's defeat... but most importantly, this is to disprove the notion of a stalemate:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FpN4wl74CuE watch from the beginning
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3Ftl0nslqY watch from 1:50 onward.

M5 is a starship graveyard, with tons and tons of wreckage and debris orbiting the rock, reaching quite a distance beyond the planet, a distance greater than Malak's ships, already proven superior to Revan's, orbited Taris. Both the elements and debris encase the heart of M5, making scans nigh-impossible on the surface, but you may be leaving out the idea that electrical interference from the planet and the debris may also make it difficult for Revan's forces to accurately monitor anything coming out of M5, traveling amongst the debris. Where am I going with this? Boarding parties... sneaking on using small, drifting shuttles, pulling "Han"s, evading sensors and steadily, stealthily boarding their, particularly stray ships... now imagine we were allowed a stalemate, how many support ships, how many shuttles will hop from ship-to-ship within Revan's fleet? Like a virus, those assassins can board and wait... and as Revan's forces monitor Malachor, Traya's assassins monitor Revan, monitor his ships, monitor their patterns, their movements, their security, their personnel... you see where I am going with this.

Time would not be on Revan's side. Malachor's surrounded by wreckage, making maneuvering large, bulky vessels near-impossible without them taking damage or taking on boarders.
1. This debate is kinda over
2. Revan's ships can orbit at a distance.
3. K-Canon (Beni) says that Kreia is now on Malachor with 0% of her ships, while Revan has 20% of his (which is EXTREMELY generous to Traya)