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Kaggath Series: Darth Traya vs Revan

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
Kaggath Series: Darth Traya vs Revan

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
11.29.2012 , 11:41 AM | #231
OK, I'm not going to make too much of an argument just point out a few flaws:

1. Chemical warfare is allowed but seeing as Revan has shown no possession of chemical weapons it is not apart of his power base and therefore cannot be used.

2. No, the MSG is not active and cannot be activated. I think you misintpreted when I spoke of this, when I mean you can't turn it 'off' I meant its effects can't be stopped. Even after its activated its the mass shadows continue to remain around Malachor causing its instable gravity - so ships could only stay there for a small amount of time.

3. Orbital bombardment is possible, but not if you don't no what to bombard. The Trayus Academy is a tiny speck on Malachor's surface and Revan does not know its exact location. I'm going to make an assumption here but I expect electrical storms would prevent Revan's scanning the planet for the Academy. And while he could scour the planet with the Force, both the dark side and Traya herself would cloud him vision. Sending ground forces is the only option.

4. Defections are unlikely. A majority of Traya's forces are mindless sith who have been become enslaved to the dark side. Whats more Malachor doesn't exactly have holoprojectors, how is Revan going to trasmit this message? However many Sith are more autonomous and while they would never join Revan, they would flee the battle (however they have no where to go - so a fight to the death is likely)

5. Just to address a non-Battle of Malachor related topic. People seem to think the Jedi's devotion to Revan will stop them from falling. Wrong. Traya's isn't going to bribe you, she's going to torture and force you into submission with the overwhelming power of the dark side - as Revan did in the JCW and she did during the First Jedi Purge - its tried and proven. (e.g. Remember Bastila? She was turned without Malachor, and had no motives for joining Malak)

6. Revan cannot throw debris at Malachor, lol. This isn't that 2D Clone Wars series. And on the topic of unorthodox orbital bombardment - the gravity of Malachor would prevent ships from crashing into the academy, they would have no control over their path. May I also add that the Trayus Academy is submerged into Malachor's crust. It survived the Mass Shadow Generator! And thousands of ships being smashed against the planets surface! It can survive a brief orbital bombardment.

Basically orbitally bombarding the most inorbitally bombardable planet in the galaxy is not a sound tactic. Open ground warfare however is

However there are three things I'd like you to consider on that point:

Storm Beasts
Electric Storms
Poisonous Vents

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
11.29.2012 , 11:44 AM | #232
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
This talk of bombardment is foolish at best. If we are under the impression that Revan knows Traya is at Malachor, then Traya knows he is coming.

As soon as Revan's fleet comes out of hyperspace, they begin the bombardment. They aim wildly in an attempt to hit the Academy. Suddenly, the Triumvirate fleet comes out of hyperspace behind Revan's fleet. Caught off-guard, Revan's fleet takes heavy losses as they turn to engage the enemy fleet. But by the time they turn around, the enemy has vanished. But not before Assassins sneak onboard a couple of Revan's ships.

The bombardment resumes, but suddenly, multiple Haamerhead frigates fire upon their allies. The Assassins have taken control of multiple frigates and are firing on the Republic ships. But then the Triumvirate fleet returns. The Assassin ships and the Triumvirate fleet quickly defeat the Republic fleet.

Revan doesn't get a chance to bombard the Academy.
A interesting point, would Traya have the Forces to spare? Perhaps. Revan could probably overwhelm her with superiors numbers - but that's if you believe Traya wins the space battle. I say they tear each other apart. Traya would be ready though - the dark energies on Malachor do give her foresight.

P.S. This is becoming an even more interesting debate - I'm still undecided about the outcome.

EDIT: Aurbere! Stop making stuff up! I never said orbital bombardment was ruled out, I just believe in my opinion that is is nigh impossible. But that's my opinion there and that has the same value as anyone else. What is law will be declared in big capital letters!

MasterMe's Avatar


MasterMe
11.29.2012 , 11:51 AM | #233
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
This talk of bombardment is foolish at best. If we are under the impression that Revan knows Traya is at Malachor, then Traya knows he is coming.

As soon as Revan's fleet comes out of hyperspace, they begin the bombardment. They aim wildly in an attempt to hit the Academy. Suddenly, the Triumvirate fleet comes out of hyperspace behind Revan's fleet. Caught off-guard, Revan's fleet takes heavy losses as they turn to engage the enemy fleet. But by the time they turn around, the enemy has vanished. But not before Assassins sneak onboard a couple of Revan's ships.

The bombardment resumes, but suddenly, multiple Haamerhead frigates fire upon their allies. The Assassins have taken control of multiple frigates and are firing on the Republic ships. But then the Triumvirate fleet returns. The Assassin ships and the Triumvirate fleet quickly defeat the Republic fleet.

Revan doesn't get a chance to bombard the Academy.
Have I not explained 1,000 times that Revan wins the space battles? Sure this hit and run stuff you speak of is affective, but these aren't tactics that are unfamiliar to Revan.

I thought we'd come to the conclusion that Revan is gonna end up surrounding Malachor V?

But you're right to an extent. Traya's warfare will inflict some casulties on Revan, so he's not gonna be surrounding Malachor with 100% of his forces. But he'll have most of them.

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
11.29.2012 , 11:52 AM | #234
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
A interesting point, would Traya have the Forces to spare? Perhaps. Revan could probably overwhelm her with superiors numbers - but that's if you believe Traya wins the space battle. I say they tear each other apart. Traya would be ready though - the dark energies on Malachor do give her foresight.

P.S. This is becoming an even more interesting debate - I'm still undecided about the outcome.
If you are referring to her take over of several Republic ships, you bet she has enough Assassins. The Triumvirate had a ton of assassins (a thousand I think). I'm thinking she sends ten or twenty to each ship and takes over four ships. The surprise of having your own ships fire on you and then another fleet come in will cause confusion. Either way, I think Traya will win the space battle, but at a heavy cost. The battle costs both sides heavily, making a ground assault Revan's only real option. Traya knows this and will summon the power of Malachor to make every step his forces take a living nightmare.

The troops will be overwhelmed by the power of the Dark Side, seeing hallucinations the soldiers discharge their weapons randomly and then commit suicide as the nightmares grow in intensity. Jedi will be corrupted, their connection to the Light Side diminished, making them easy prey for Traya's assassins. I find it unlikely Revan will get far, but if he does make it to the Academy, he faces an army of Sith. I don't see Revan getting to the Trayus Core, but if he does, he will lose.
Added Chapter 29 to The Shadows Fall
"You felt it; the power of hate. The power of the Dark Side. Your eyes are opened. You see now. The power burns more brightly, stronger on the Dark Side. Despite what the Council had taught you, you now know the truth."- Count Dooku

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
11.29.2012 , 11:58 AM | #235
Quote: Originally Posted by MasterMe View Post
Have I not explained 1,000 times that Revan wins the space battles? Sure this hit and run stuff you speak of is affective, but these aren't tactics that are unfamiliar to Revan.

I thought we'd come to the conclusion that Revan is gonna end up surrounding Malachor V?

But you're right to an extent. Traya's warfare will inflict some casulties on Revan, so he's not gonna be surrounding Malachor with 100% of his forces. But he'll have most of them.
Hmmm, the way I see it. And I'm in arbiter-my-word-is-law mode, is that Revan wins the space battle. But Traya hounds him all the way and tears most of his fleet apart, setting them against him etc. But with each loss Traya loses more of her small force, and eventually does not have enough to pilot all the ships she has captured. Realizing her defeat on the space front she retreats to Malachor V - where she holds all the advantages. Revan breaks through her retreating line and surrounds Malachor. But of course Traya is prepared, mustering the last of her fleet she attacks Malachor and damages Revan's fleet (which has yet to engage, expecting an ambush) Superior tactics on Revan's part means the fleet is wiped out, but Revan takes losses.

With the remainder of his Forces he moves in to take Malachor, and the rest is up for debate....

So the above it basically K-Canon (Kaggath Canon ) on what happened in the space battle, based on my judgement of your arguments. So we can set that aside and focus on the final showdown.

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
11.29.2012 , 12:01 PM | #236
Quote: Originally Posted by MasterMe View Post
Have I not explained 1,000 times that Revan wins the space battles? Sure this hit and run stuff you speak of is affective, but these aren't tactics that are unfamiliar to Revan.

I thought we'd come to the conclusion that Revan is gonna end up surrounding Malachor V?

But you're right to an extent. Traya's warfare will inflict some casulties on Revan, so he's not gonna be surrounding Malachor with 100% of his forces. But he'll have most of them.
You are correct that Revan will end up surrounding Malachor. My scenario showed Revan's first attempt at a bombardment. He wouldn't bring in all of his forces until he knew the planet was clear of an enemy presence. The first assault was beaten, but that doesn't mean Revan doesn't have any more ships. He has plenty of ships to bring in, but I don't think bombardment is possible.

The electrical storms would make locating the Academy nearly impossible, not only that, but the Academy is imbeded into the surface. It's not just sitting there like a normal Academy. It's roots run deep, the Trayus Core sits in a well of Dark Side energy. A simple bombardment is not going to sufficiently damage the Academy.
Added Chapter 29 to The Shadows Fall
"You felt it; the power of hate. The power of the Dark Side. Your eyes are opened. You see now. The power burns more brightly, stronger on the Dark Side. Despite what the Council had taught you, you now know the truth."- Count Dooku

MasterMe's Avatar


MasterMe
11.29.2012 , 12:04 PM | #237
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
OK, I'm not going to make too much of an argument just point out a few flaws:

1. Chemical warfare is allowed but seeing as Revan has shown no possession of chemical weapons it is not apart of his power base and therefore cannot be used.

2. No, the MSG is not active and cannot be activated. I think you misintpreted when I spoke of this, when I mean you can't turn it 'off' I meant its effects can't be stopped. Even after its activated its the mass shadows continue to remain around Malachor causing its instable gravity - so ships could only stay there for a small amount of time.

3. Orbital bombardment is possible, but not if you don't no what to bombard. The Trayus Academy is a tiny speck on Malachor's surface and Revan does not know its exact location. I'm going to make an assumption here but I expect electrical storms would prevent Revan's scanning the planet for the Academy. And while he could scour the planet with the Force, both the dark side and Traya herself would cloud him vision. Sending ground forces is the only option.

4. Defections are unlikely. A majority of Traya's forces are mindless sith who have been become enslaved to the dark side. Whats more Malachor doesn't exactly have holoprojectors, how is Revan going to trasmit this message? However many Sith are more autonomous and while they would never join Revan, they would flee the battle (however they have no where to go - so a fight to the death is likely)

5. Just to address a non-Battle of Malachor related topic. People seem to think the Jedi's devotion to Revan will stop them from falling. Wrong. Traya's isn't going to bribe you, she's going to torture and force you into submission with the overwhelming power of the dark side - as Revan did in the JCW and she did during the First Jedi Purge - its tried and proven. (e.g. Remember Bastila? She was turned without Malachor, and had no motives for joining Malak)

6. Revan cannot throw debris at Malachor, lol. This isn't that 2D Clone Wars series. And on the topic of unorthodox orbital bombardment - the gravity of Malachor would prevent ships from crashing into the academy, they would have no control over their path. May I also add that the Trayus Academy is submerged into Malachor's crust. It survived the Mass Shadow Generator! And thousands of ships being smashed against the planets surface! It can survive a brief orbital bombardment.

Basically orbitally bombarding the most inorbitally bombardable planet in the galaxy is not a sound tactic. Open ground warfare however is

However there are three things I'd like you to consider on that point:

Storm Beasts
Electric Storms
Poisonous Vents
OK so you claim bombardment will be ineffective for the most part. This is debatable, but for the most part, I guess you're right.

But Revan WILL end up surrounding Malachor V. Once he has the planet blockaded, he'll do the following things:
1. He's gonna wait 'em out. Seriously, this wins the battle here. I imagine Traya can survive without food through the force, but her students will be incapable of this. So Revan starves them out.
2. He's gonna scan the planet. If this doesn't work, he'll send in scouts. He's got an endless amount of time at this point, so he WILL aventually find the Trayus Academy.
3. Once he finds the Academy, he'll bombard it. You made the point that this won't do much, but Revan can likely chew down a few of their numbers by doing this. Won't do a whole lot, but it'll do some damage.
NOTE: Everything that happens after this point likely won't happen because Traya's forces will starve.
4. Revan will begin a long-term assault as somebody pointed out earlier. He'll take his time, being very careful with any beasts, traps, and ambushes. This process will be executed as slowly and as safely as possible. Revan will be sending Jedi and what few combat droids he has to Malachor's surface.
5. He does some more starving and sets up artillery and does everything imaginable to weaken the Trayus Academy.
NOTE: At this point: 90% (that's generous) of Traya's forces are dead.
6. ATTACK!
Revan + most of his Revanites + combat droids vs Traya alone

Revan wins.

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
11.29.2012 , 12:09 PM | #238
Quote: Originally Posted by MasterMe View Post
OK so you claim bombardment will be ineffective for the most part. This is debatable, but for the most part, I guess you're right.

But Revan WILL end up surrounding Malachor V. Once he has the planet blockaded, he'll do the following things:
1. He's gonna wait 'em out. Seriously, this wins the battle here. I imagine Traya can survive without food through the force, but her students will be incapable of this. So Revan starves them out.
2. He's gonna scan the planet. If this doesn't work, he'll send in scouts. He's got an endless amount of time at this point, so he WILL aventually find the Trayus Academy.
3. Once he finds the Academy, he'll bombard it. You made the point that this won't do much, but Revan can likely chew down a few of their numbers by doing this. Won't do a whole lot, but it'll do some damage.
NOTE: Everything that happens after this point likely won't happen because Traya's forces will starve.
4. Revan will begin a long-term assault as somebody pointed out earlier. He'll take his time, being very careful with any beasts, traps, and ambushes. This process will be executed as slowly and as safely as possible. Revan will be sending Jedi and what few combat droids he has to Malachor's surface.
5. He does some more starving and sets up artillery and does everything imaginable to weaken the Trayus Academy.
NOTE: At this point: 90% (that's generous) of Traya's forces are dead.
6. ATTACK!
Revan + most of his Revanites + combat droids vs Traya alone

Revan wins.
There's one fatal flaw in this. You are under the impression that Traya is the only one who can sustain herself with the Dark Side. That's wrong. Pretty much all Sith and Jedi can enter a trance that can sustain themselves against hunger and dehydration. Starving doesn't work. Which means your little plan here falls apart.

Not only that, but the electrical storms make operating machinery difficult. Uneven terrain makes artillery even more ineffective. Not only that, but the electrical storms and intense gravity make landing incredibly difficult and would destroy most ships.

Revan does not win.
Added Chapter 29 to The Shadows Fall
"You felt it; the power of hate. The power of the Dark Side. Your eyes are opened. You see now. The power burns more brightly, stronger on the Dark Side. Despite what the Council had taught you, you now know the truth."- Count Dooku

MasterMe's Avatar


MasterMe
11.29.2012 , 12:09 PM | #239
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Hmmm, the way I see it. And I'm in arbiter-my-word-is-law mode, is that Revan wins the space battle. But Traya hounds him all the way and tears most of his fleet apart, setting them against him etc. But with each loss Traya loses more of her small force, and eventually does not have enough to pilot all the ships she has captured. Realizing her defeat on the space front she retreats to Malachor V - where she holds all the advantages. Revan breaks through her retreating line and surrounds Malachor. But of course Traya is prepared, mustering the last of her fleet she attacks Malachor and damages Revan's fleet (which has yet to engage, expecting an ambush) Superior tactics on Revan's part means the fleet is wiped out, but Revan takes losses.

With the remainder of his Forces he moves in to take Malachor, and the rest is up for debate....

So the above it basically K-Canon (Kaggath Canon ) on what happened in the space battle, based on my judgement of your arguments. So we can set that aside and focus on the final showdown.
K-Canon? Interesting.

OK just to be clear;
At this point Revan has about 40% of his original forces?
Traya has about 40% of hers and they're all on Malachor?

If this is so, then the scenario I just posted still applies and (imo) Revan wins.

Rayla_Felana's Avatar


Rayla_Felana
11.29.2012 , 12:11 PM | #240
Quote: Originally Posted by MasterMe View Post
4. Revan will begin a long-term assault as somebody pointed out earlier. He'll take his time, being very careful with any beasts, traps, and ambushes. This process will be executed as slowly and as safely as possible. Revan will be sending Jedi and what few combat droids he has to Malachor's surface. Revan wins.
You left out one massive thing, Malachor would twist a lot of those Jedi to the Dark Side, You also underestimate the Dark Side itself, Sith can easily go without feed or drink or sleep as long as the rage of the Dark Side is within them.

Traya herself could corrupt Revan and his Jedi and win the war without any real consequence, A Dark Side nexus like Malachor V is way too much for a Jedi to resist, even a master would struggle, all the Jedi but the Exile turned when they went to Malachor V, it would be an enormous advantage.

You also aren't accounting for Traya's ability to perceive shatterpoints and adjust her plans accordingly.