Please upgrade your browser for the best possible experience.

Chrome Firefox Internet Explorer
×

Kaggath Series: Darth Traya vs Revan

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
Kaggath Series: Darth Traya vs Revan

MasterMe's Avatar


MasterMe
11.28.2012 , 11:35 AM | #171
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
I stand by my decision on the Ravager. One ship, unless it is the Executor of the Ascendant Spear, does not win a war. Maybe a battle or two, but the Ravager cannot be in all places at once. If you hold the opinion that the Ravager determines the outcome of this battle, then not only should it not exist in the first place, but then you clearly underestimate and unappreciate Traya's abilities (may I stress the ability to hold half dead ships together is not one of them) and should have been supporting Revan from the word go.

(Yes I am frowning on you for abandoning Traya because she hasn't got her ghosty ship anymore)

EDIT: More frowning

I think what people are also forgetting is how this fight will play out. Or at least this is how I see it: Traya will initiate the conflict by dispatching small fleets to attack Revan's outer rim defenses. They will be deliberately disadvantaged as all Traya wants to do is infiltrate Revan's forces with his notice. Once these intial battle subside, resulting in a supposed Revan victory (much like in the Mandalorian Wars) Traya will renew her attacks again, in the exact same fashion - accept this time she will have countless assassins in every other Republic vessel. With a word she can have them slaughter the crew and render the ship useless. But thats not all, destroying the vessels would be pointless, she would take command of them and turn them against Revan. In this way a series of strikes would not only take Revan's jedi (which would be converted at Malachor) but his fleet as well. Revan's forces would be turned against him.

Of course Revan still has the upperhand, but like all guerilla warfare, he would not be able to fight back. The fleets would dissapear as quickly as they materialized, back into the outer rim - taking Revan's forces with him. Each time they returned they would be stronger than before, until them outnumber Revan's forces completely.

But I've realised this is all secondary, like in a game of dejarik, these ships are pawns. The ultimate conflict (and here I disagree with Rayla that space combat is the most important) will - and I stress this because I am 100% - occur on Malachor V. What are the chances Traya will leave Malachor and command the fleet herself? With no military experience? Zilch, nada, none. She will remain and Malachor, goading Revan into a direct confrontation. So whether Traya wins or loses the space battle is almost irrelevant. Whether Revan has a massive fleet or not does not matter, for the gravity and debris surrounding Malachor will force him to confront Traya directly.

So I'd like to refocus the debate, seeing as we've reached a stalemate on the space front:

Revan vs Traya & Malachor V

Let the Kaggath begin again!
If you weren't the guy in charge here... if only.... oh whatever.

Let's address this plan you speak of.
First off, there's no way Traya can get enough assassins on "every Republic ship."
Secondly, Revan is more then capable of countering such warfare. Proof? He invented these assassins. The guys knows about this sort of stuff. So these assassins won't be as effective as you implied in this post (imo).

Revan winning space really is a big deal. I will now give a scenario of my own:

After a long time of fighting, (with Traya at Malachor this whole time) Traya's fleet has been significantly damaged. They pull back to Malachor for the most part. This game just got a lot simpler. Revan then makes a blockade around Malachor (mind you he won't get too close to the planet). Sure Traya and her Sith can stay alive through the force, but the soldiers that are commanding the ships are gonna start starving. While this happens, Revan will chip away at the fleet. Now Traya's fleet is hardly anything. Granted; during this time her assassins are able to inflict a bit of damage on Revan's men, but not enough to counter-act Traya's casultie numbers. Now Revan has Malachor surrounded (from a distance 'cause he doesn't want to get too close). If he can't bomb the planet (which he could easily sacrifice a few ships to do so), then he sends EVERYBODY into Malachor. Revan's casulties would be high here, but they'd have success in killing what remained of Traya's Sith. In this particular battle here assassins won't accomplish much. At this point, Traya is the only one left, and Revan (along with a bunch of his Jedi) take on Traya and kill her. The end.

This (to me) seems like the most likely thing to happen.

MasterMe's Avatar


MasterMe
11.28.2012 , 11:38 AM | #172
These assassins just aren't gonna be as affective on Revan as y'all think. Do I need to explain why again?

Darth_Scelestus's Avatar


Darth_Scelestus
11.28.2012 , 11:39 AM | #173
Do we assume that each party knows that this is a Kaggath, and therefore knows what the other party's main goal (the destruction of the other) is?

If so, Revan is unlikely to waste time defending Republic worlds from Traya's assaults. He would take the fight to her.

(A quick question: how quickly does M5's influence corrupt? Minutes, hours, days, weeks... ?)

Some seem to be under the impression that Revan and his Jedi would immediately fall under the sway of the dark side if they ventured to M5, and then defect to Traya's side. It is my opinion that the second part of that statement, at the least, is wrong. I believe that, even if they fell to the dark side, Revan's Jedi would still be loyal to him -- at the least, they'd see the power in him and stick with him in the hope of gaining that kind of power for themselves. And I doubt that Revan would shy away from drawing upon the dark side to kill Traya, if he felt he had to do so. Remember, Revan was fairly arrogant at this point in time, and he had just fought a war in which he sacrificed numerous worlds in order to strike against the Mandos.

Thus, Revan would not necessarily be alone when he fought Traya at the Core. I'm not really sure who would win, but it wou;dn't necessarily be "Lightside Revan" against "Traya empowered by the darkside nexus of M5."

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
11.28.2012 , 11:43 AM | #174
Quote: Originally Posted by MasterMe View Post
These assassins just aren't gonna be as affective on Revan as y'all think. Do I need to explain why again?
Please do. You are under the impression that Revan knew how to make these assassins the whole time, when really he gained the knowledge from Malachor. This is the Revan that fought in the Mandalorian Wars. He has no knowledge of these assassins or how to recreate it.
Added Chapter 63 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

MasterMe's Avatar


MasterMe
11.28.2012 , 11:44 AM | #175
Quote: Originally Posted by Darth_Scelestus View Post
Do we assume that each party knows that this is a Kaggath, and therefore knows what the other party's main goal (the destruction of the other) is?

If so, Revan is unlikely to waste time defending Republic worlds from Traya's assaults. He would take the fight to her.

(A quick question: how quickly does M5's influence corrupt? Minutes, hours, days, weeks... ?)

Some seem to be under the impression that Revan and his Jedi would immediately fall under the sway of the dark side if they ventured to M5, and then defect to Traya's side. It is my opinion that the second part of that statement, at the least, is wrong. I believe that, even if they fell to the dark side, Revan's Jedi would still be loyal to him -- at the least, they'd see the power in him and stick with him in the hope of gaining that kind of power for themselves. And I doubt that Revan would shy away from drawing upon the dark side to kill Traya, if he felt he had to do so. Remember, Revan was fairly arrogant at this point in time, and he had just fought a war in which he sacrificed numerous worlds in order to strike against the Mandos.

Thus, Revan would not necessarily be alone when he fought Traya at the Core. I'm not really sure who would win, but it wou;dn't necessarily be "Lightside Revan" against "Traya empowered by the darkside nexus of M5."
You're right.

HOWEVER: This would have been Revan near the beginning of the Mando War. So he wouldn't have been AS arrogant.

Darth_Scelestus's Avatar


Darth_Scelestus
11.28.2012 , 11:50 AM | #176
Quote: Originally Posted by MasterMe View Post
You're right.

HOWEVER: This would have been Revan near the beginning of the Mando War. So he wouldn't have been AS arrogant.
Oops... lol. I somehow got it in my head that this was the Revan from the END of the Mando Wars... my bad guys

ReiKai's Avatar


ReiKai
11.28.2012 , 11:52 AM | #177
People seem under the impression that soldiers, commanders and Jedi only started following Revan after he became a Sith Lord. That's just ridiculous. They were following him even before he Officially entered the Mandalorian War. It's what they called the Revanchist Movement. Alek (aka Malak, aka Squint) followed him even then, along with many other Jedi, and they were involved with scouting missions and other off-the-books assistance to Republic Forces. Revan was already building support not only among the Jedi, but among the Republic Military.

Revan became a General and gained control of a third of the Republic Navy not because he was a Jedi, but because many soldiers and leaders in the Republic trust and believe in him for doing what the Jedi Council refused to do. So the idea that Traya can get these people to betray the one they see as their savior and the great hero of the Mandalorian Wars, is not likely. And that would require Traya herself going to each and every one of these people to try and 'convince' them, which only puts her at greater risk. The only reason she managed to break Sion is because he was an inherently weak-minded person and had been under her thumb for years.

Revan, on the other hand, took her teachings, along with the rest of his Jedi Masters, and went further. Traya herself was infatuated with him. Do you think she'd ever be capable of truly matching his leadership skills? And with all the respect and admiration she has for him, would that not also affect the Sith in her own keeping and make them believe that Revan is perhaps the greater of the two leaders? After all, he is defying the Jedi Council. He got thousands of Jedi to follow his lead and many more soldiers. He single-handedly changed the face of war in the battle against the Mandalorians and saved the Republic.

Traya is good workin the shadows and doin back-stabby stuff. But that only worked so long as the Triumverate remained unknown. Once Meetra and the other Jedi became aware of the Assassins, they lost their effectiveness, and they never did infiltrate Atris' Academy on Telos.
CE Owner: ...what? I wanted the music. I like music.
Statement: SGRA's - I support them. Do you have a problem with that, Meatbag?

MasterMe's Avatar


MasterMe
11.28.2012 , 11:52 AM | #178
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
Please do. You are under the impression that Revan knew how to make these assassins the whole time, when really he gained the knowledge from Malachor. This is the Revan that fought in the Mandalorian Wars. He has no knowledge of these assassins or how to recreate it.
Okay. Here goes:

1. Revan knows his master. This means that mass-deceptions aren't gonna work AS well on Revan as it would on others.
2. IF Malachor gave Revan the idea for assassins, then the fact remains that Revan possesses the ability to comprehend how to handle such scenarios.
3. Revan has obviously studied. We know he is great general, and a great general is gonna have some knowledge of assassins and their techniques (granted these assassins are different then others)
4. After a fight with the assassins, Revan would understand them very well, and would thus know how to counter them and perhaps recreate them. It's kinda like how the Carthaginians were beating the Romans until the Romans recovered on of the Carthaginian ships and studied it.
5. Revan is capable of mass-deceptions of his own. I guarantee you that Ordo says that Revan used "mass-deceptions" on them. I swear he said those exact to words together. This means that Revan is capable of such warfare.

The guys understands this stuff people. Trust me.

MasterMe's Avatar


MasterMe
11.28.2012 , 11:54 AM | #179
Quote: Originally Posted by ReiKai View Post
People seem under the impression that soldiers, commanders and Jedi only started following Revan after he became a Sith Lord. That's just ridiculous. They were following him even before he Officially entered the Mandalorian War. It's what they called the Revanchist Movement. Alek (aka Malak, aka Squint) followed him even then, along with many other Jedi, and they were involved with scouting missions and other off-the-books assistance to Republic Forces. Revan was already building support not only among the Jedi, but among the Republic Military.

Revan became a General and gained control of a third of the Republic Navy not because he was a Jedi, but because many soldiers and leaders in the Republic trust and believe in him for doing what the Jedi Council refused to do. So the idea that Traya can get these people to betray the one they see as their savior and the great hero of the Mandalorian Wars, is not likely. And that would require Traya herself going to each and every one of these people to try and 'convince' them, which only puts her at greater risk. The only reason she managed to break Sion is because he was an inherently weak-minded person and had been under her thumb for years.

Revan, on the other hand, took her teachings, along with the rest of his Jedi Masters, and went further. Traya herself was infatuated with him. Do you think she'd ever be capable of truly matching his leadership skills? And with all the respect and admiration she has for him, would that not also affect the Sith in her own keeping and make them believe that Revan is perhaps the greater of the two leaders? After all, he is defying the Jedi Council. He got thousands of Jedi to follow his lead and many more soldiers. He single-handedly changed the face of war in the battle against the Mandalorians and saved the Republic.

Traya is good workin the shadows and doin back-stabby stuff. But that only worked so long as the Triumverate remained unknown. Once Meetra and the other Jedi became aware of the Assassins, they lost their effectiveness, and they never did infiltrate Atris' Academy on Telos.
You speak the truth.

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
11.28.2012 , 12:00 PM | #180
Quote: Originally Posted by MasterMe View Post
If you weren't the guy in charge here... if only.... oh whatever.

Let's address this plan you speak of.
First off, there's no way Traya can get enough assassins on (every Republic ship."
Secondly, Revan is more then capable of countering such warfare. Proof? He invented these assassins. The guys knows about this sort of stuff. So these assassins won't be as effective as you implied in this post (imo).
Let me rephrase: every other ship she attacks in the outer rim. Traya engages a fleet and during the fighting infiltrates every other ship, maybe not every other but hypothetically only one would be needed - after the battle they would spread. So when Traya returns to fight the same forces, Revan's fleet loses. As all the infiltrated ships are converted.

Quote:
Revan winning space really is a big deal. I will now give a scenario of my own:

After a long time of fighting, (with Traya at Malachor this whole time) Traya's fleet has been significantly damaged. They pull back to Malachor for the most part. This game just got a lot simpler. Revan then makes a blockade around Malachor (mind you he won't get too close to the planet). Sure Traya and her Sith can stay alive through the force, but the soldiers that are commanding the ships are gonna start starving. While this happens, Revan will chip away at the fleet. Now Traya's fleet is hardly anything. Granted; during this time her assassins are able to inflict a bit of damage on Revan's men, but not enough to counter-act Traya's casultie numbers. Now Revan has Malachor surrounded (from a distance 'cause he doesn't want to get too close). If he can't bomb the planet (which he could easily sacrifice a few ships to do so), then he sends EVERYBODY into Malachor. Revan's casulties would be high here, but they'd have success in killing what remained of Traya's Sith. In this particular battle here assassins won't accomplish much. At this point, Traya is the only one left, and Revan (along with a bunch of his Jedi) take on Traya and kill her. The end.

This (to me) seems like the most likely thing to happen.
You make a very good point here. Apart from the beginning. "After a long time" your making the assumption that after this long time Traya would be on the defensive. My theory of capture and convert suggests otherwise. Now I know we've been debating space battle for the last 15 or so pages. So if you feel the need to counter, just counter that point specifically.

But onto your scenario, lets say Traya does lose the space battle. And while Traya has control over whether he finds Malachor or not, even if she does lead him there - he's not foolish enough to come alone. So yes, your blockade scenario is a highly likely one.

Now, about Revan invading Malachor with all his forces. Most if not all of the ships (assumingly some kind of transports) crash on their attempts to land. (The Ebon Hawk crashed, and Atton was a skilled pilot.) Only a few, mainly Jedi piloted, ships would survive the gravitational pull and electical storms (and gun batteries is Traya is clever - which she is) Still, we have a considerbale force of Jedi and a scattering of Republic soldiers on the ground. (Which would have to regroup by the way which would lead to further casualties) Now the soldiers are irrelevant. By the gist of your scenario this blockade would be a prolonged one. Giving Traya more than enough time to set up ambushes etc. So the soldiers and Jedi would be constantly assaulted by Traya's remaining assassins, which would be numerous as their casualties during the war would have been minimal and would not be wasted on the blockade, as they attempt to reach the Core. Not only that, the soldiers, affected by the dark side energies of Malachor, would be blinded by its power and unable to fight effectively AKA bantha fodder. The Jedi would be not much better, while most would be able to resist its power, the dark side would cloud their vision - maybe even cut them off from the light. This would make them easy prey for the assassins, especially since they feed of Force users. So there forces would take a heavy hitting.

By the time they reach the Academy, only a handful of Jedi remain, all the soldiers have likely been killed - Revan would be no doubt among them. They would then have to wade through the academies Sith and more assassins. Now Meetra managed this by herself - but remember Traya will be applying full pressure on Revan. Most likely several Jedi will fall to the Sith, Revan will no doubt survive.

So, we have finally reached the core. Who remains? 5 maybe 6 Jedi? and... oh, dead. Killed instantly by Traya's dark healing. Suddenly Revan is alone. So no matter what the situation, it comes down to Revan vs Traya and Malachor V.

P.S. Revan has no knowledge of assassins at this point. And therefore would not be able to predict their moves. Secondly, conversion would probably take days/weeks. But that's irrelevant, Jedi surrounded by the dark side weak Jedi.

EDIT: Traya's assassins were different to Revan's assassins (i think) Traya's assassins had learned how to feed of the Force, and even if I'm wrong - Light side Revan would have no knowledge of such an ability.