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Kaggath Series: Darth Traya vs Revan

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
Kaggath Series: Darth Traya vs Revan

Girdeux's Avatar


Girdeux
11.27.2012 , 09:40 PM | #131
Quote: Originally Posted by BlazingShadow View Post
Lol someone's feeling hurt.

We're dealing with a technicality of the Kaggath that should be settled by the OP. It shuts down one ship, but it is a ship, not Nihilus' power. I contest the ship should be there because it is part of Kreia's power base, not a super-weapon OR a prominent figure, it is equipment.

But this is a very silly discussion anyways given the fact that in order for it to be a fair fight, Darth Traya has to fight with both arms tied behind her back. Even then it's definitely not far-fetched for Traya to win.
THATS the point of the Kaggath. It ISNT just equipment. Its POWERED by Nihilus to be able to fly, It CAN be classed as a super-weapon. WITHOUT Nihilius its a wreckage of a ship in the sky. The only feelings hurt here are yous because you cant use your precious ship.

Edit: Last time.

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
11.27.2012 , 09:41 PM | #132
Quote: Originally Posted by MasterMe View Post
Jedi Knight Revan becomes Darth Revan, He certainly does have "an idea" of how to make assassins. The idea is somewhere in his noggin. Your logic says that before Thomas Edison invented the light bulb, he couldn't have invented it. What? That doesn't make any sense. Thomas Edison always had the ability to create the light bulb. Same goes for Revan. If the situation calls for it, then he possesses the ability to create assassins.
He gained the knowledge from the Sith. Jedi Revan does not have this knowledge. He gains it from the Sith. Thomas Edison experimented to create the lightbulb.
Added Chapter 66 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

BlazingShadow's Avatar


BlazingShadow
11.27.2012 , 09:55 PM | #133
Quote: Originally Posted by Girdeux View Post
THATS the point of the Kaggath. It ISNT just equipment. Its POWERED by Nihilus to be able to fly, It CAN be classed as a super-weapon. WITHOUT Nihilius its a wreckage of a ship in the sky. The only feelings hurt here are yous because you cant use your precious ship.

Edit: Last time.
Lol read through my posts, the Ravager is hardly what will win the fight, I'm just sticking up for what is fair AND to not invalidate a series of other posters' musings about hypothetical fights within the Kaggath.

MasterMe's Avatar


MasterMe
11.27.2012 , 09:59 PM | #134
I can understand you guys thinking that Traya's assassins would end up winning the game for her, but recently you've implied that Traya could also win in open warfare. The latter isn't a possiblity.

While Traya may have better ships, Revan has MANY more + he's a better general then Traya is + he's fueled by the Republic which is gonna give Revan huge resource advantages.

As I've said before, Traya is gonna have to rely on her assassins, who can make a difference, but on their own they won't change the tide of the war.

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
11.27.2012 , 10:03 PM | #135
Quote: Originally Posted by MasterMe View Post
I can understand you guys thinking that Traya's assassins would end up winning the game for her, but recently you've implied that Traya could also win in open warfare. The latter isn't a possiblity.

While Traya may have better ships, Revan has MANY more + he's a better general then Traya is + he's fueled by the Republic which is gonna give Revan huge resource advantages.

As I've said before, Traya is gonna have to rely on her assassins, who can make a difference, but on their own they won't change the tide of the war.
Actually, Traya would do fairly well in open warfare. Maybe not outright battles, but that's not the MO of the Triumvirate. The Triumvirate operated in stealth and deception, and rarely fought in open battles. Traya could easily maneuver her forces to strike from the shadows. Revan would be able to win an outright war, but Traya's forces would not easily be lured into such scenarios.

And Revan only has a third of the Republic ships. That was his fleet during the Mandalorian Wars.

Edit: Now this is key. In order to gain true victory, Revan has to defeat Traya's fleet. He has the numbers, but as it stands, Traya has the better ships. He has to lure them into a trap, a battle that they can't win. Entirely possible against someone that isn't Traya, but she has the ability to see the future if she remains on Malachor. She could easily counter Revan's efforts.
Added Chapter 66 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

SoonerJBD's Avatar


SoonerJBD
11.27.2012 , 11:54 PM | #136
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
DARTH REVAN!

We aren't talking about Darth Revan. We are talking about Jedi Revan, Jedi Revan has no idea who these assassins are, or what makes them so good at what they do. They were created by Darth Revan, but Jedi Revan is not Darth Revan.

They may be the same person, but Jedi Revan does not know what Darth Revan does.
This is one of the key points that is hanging me up on this thread. If we were talking about Darth Revan, I don't think this would be close. But I guess I'm still a bit confused. It seems Traya has a built-in advantage. She knows of Revan and his powers and he presumably does not know of her as Darth Traya since he did not train with her as Darth Traya until after he fell. He wouldn't even know she is based on Malachor V. If they are engaging in a Kaggath, don't we at least have to assume that Revan knows who she is and her basic story, i.e. what he is up against? If not, then I think Traya has a ridiculous advantage.

That said, I think people are also overestimating Traya's power base. Her primary strength is deception, and a Kaggath takes much of that strength away. You can't slowly plot a Kaggath. You have to read and react on the fly. She can't hide as a friend when she is really a foe. Her loyalties are clear if they are engaged in such a battle. I don't know how many assassins she has, but I don't see how they could defeat Revan's army. A handful of Mandalorians handle the Assassins pretty well on Dxun, and Revan's soldiers are presumably as capable as they are. Revan wouldn't even have to go to the Trayus Academy. He could just overwhelm it with an army. The only reason Trayus Academy wasn't destroyed by the Republic is that no one knew it was there. If we assume that Revan knows it is there, an invasion would be pretty straightforward.

If you look at what she did in KOTOR II, it was all done from the shadows. Her true intentions are hidden. That's not possible in a Kaggath. If the enemy knows she is coming, I don't think she is much of a threat.

SoonerJBD's Avatar


SoonerJBD
11.28.2012 , 12:03 AM | #137
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
Actually, Traya would do fairly well in open warfare. Maybe not outright battles, but that's not the MO of the Triumvirate. The Triumvirate operated in stealth and deception, and rarely fought in open battles. Traya could easily maneuver her forces to strike from the shadows. Revan would be able to win an outright war, but Traya's forces would not easily be lured into such scenarios.

And Revan only has a third of the Republic ships. That was his fleet during the Mandalorian Wars.

Edit: Now this is key. In order to gain true victory, Revan has to defeat Traya's fleet. He has the numbers, but as it stands, Traya has the better ships. He has to lure them into a trap, a battle that they can't win. Entirely possible against someone that isn't Traya, but she has the ability to see the future if she remains on Malachor. She could easily counter Revan's efforts.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but farsight doesn't work that way. Sideous was better at it than anyone, yet he could not use it to find rebel bases or fleets or predict their tactics.

Any advantage Traya would have in better ships would seemingly be nullified by the sheer number of ships at Revan's disposal. The Republic ships were certainly capable of fighting with the Interdictors even if they weren't quite as good. We see this at the end of KOTOR. If the numbers advantage is as great as it would appear, I don't see how a handful of Interdictors is going to do much of anything against a fleet the size of Revan's.

Kaggath is open warfare. This isn't an insurgency. In a Kaggath, you know who your enemy is. Striking from the shadows is fine if you are a small force slowly trying to topple a large entity like the Republic when they don't know who you are or that you even exist. It doesn't work so well when war is declared. To win a war, you have to win battles and occupy territory.

To me, the only way Traya wins is if she has the advantage of being from the future so that Revan doesn't know who she is, where she operates from or what her forces are like, which seems a pretty strange way to set the rules for a Kaggath.

GarfieldJL's Avatar


GarfieldJL
11.28.2012 , 12:33 AM | #138
Revan would probably win, so Traya had steal assassins big deal, so did the Mandalorians, and Revan clobbered them.

Revan has the strength in numbers from the fleet, plus his people were fighting Mandalorians, so they aren't exactly a bunch of newbies. I think Darth Traya is in serious trouble.

pbajnokl's Avatar


pbajnokl
11.28.2012 , 02:13 AM | #139
Which Revan are we talking about? Revan as we know it in the Kotor? or Revan reborn?... Ahh.... forget it, Revan would win easily... Revan a military genius and Kreia not (and don't read what aurbere say... no matter who are against Revan... Revan would loose always... Revan vs Wampa? " Aurbere: Wampa because I hate Revan and because how there you think otherwise?!" It is obvious that in the Kotor area Revan is the strongest, and in the ToR area...well... we will see if he is not dead)

Btw I its meaningless which Revan because KotoR Jedi Revan memories are not the same as before, but his personality is! (when u have to find the kashyyk star map and Darth Revan built a Rakata computer for security reasons there... and u have to answere military questions I hope u all remember u have to answere as Darth Revan would [I know that u have other options but that's because we are talking about a Bioware game] or when u have to beat Dark Bastila, she said that too) and if we are talking about Revan Reborn... then it's absolutely Revan's win.

Ausstig's Avatar


Ausstig
11.28.2012 , 04:04 AM | #140
Revan wins.

Keria has no charisma and cannot motivate people. She says this her self "I speak with a passion that does not move others".

While that may not seem like much if you can't inspire loyalty in those underneath you then they will not fight for you, or at least as well as they can.

Keria does not know war. She knows manipulate and tricks, but not a knock down drag out fight.

She has like 6 ships and a few hundred, maybe a thousand being generous, Assassins. Her best, and really only, option is a guerilla style conflict, like the end of the second Boer War (1899-1902). It may take years but eventually Revan will run her down and force her to fight.

She will need fuel and food eventually, also the assassins are not perfect, the Mandos spotted them so it is likely others can as well.
Have Force lightning will travel