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Time for a PvP Fix

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fungihoujo's Avatar


fungihoujo
12.01.2012 , 10:59 AM | #41
Quote: Originally Posted by Chemic_al View Post
Any yet you complain that I'm asking for a buff to our damage so we can do 10k damage in 3 GCDs (2xFL and a Death Field), that other classes can do in 2 GCDs..... saying that it would be too much.

Yeah.... okay :S
We need a buff to our damage- 5-6k just from dots though would mean something like 8k with others... and that burst could be sustained for something like 7 seconds every 20 seconds because they're dots. That'd be something like 30-40k damage- we're looking to be on par with others, not to bury them (as much fun as seeing marauders cry for six months would be- I don't think BW would do something that drastic).

I agree if we have no defensives we should have burst like that- but that's why I was advocating us to not just get a moderate dps boost (50% boost to affliction, 25% to CD, at least 100% to creeping if not more considering as a 31 point it does abysmal damage- for chain lightning and lightning strike 50-100%, thundering blast 100% plus no auto crit but double damage in return, etc...). But, also to get casting mobility, force speed being root immune at baseline, force slow having a root at baseline, recklessness having a stun break on use, etc....

Just giving us damage would only address one of our many problems. We need some mobility, some defensives, some CC breaking- and we need some of it to be baseline, because right now we have to hybridize and lose a lot of healing and damage going part lightning just so we can have survivability on par with most other classes baseline... and not even that seeing as we have half the kinetic/weapon/energy damage mitigation everyone else has.

Also- creeping terror needs dot protection- so if a sin uses shroud or a healer purges- something like 3k damage, 5k crit is done to caster and dot target, along with a 3 second no resolve stun. Make the 31 point talent scary, not something so harmless people don't even need to cleanse it.



And- on top of that- other classes need their damage reduced, brought in line. Smash can't be doing this much damage on demand, snipers can set up 10k combos. Combat isn't fun when it lasts too short of a time for anyone to reasonably counter.

verfallen's Avatar


verfallen
12.01.2012 , 03:02 PM | #42
Quote: Originally Posted by Chemic_al View Post
No, I don't think it's unreasonable in the least. We have no defensive cooldowns at all, the only other class in a bad place is mercs, the other dpsers do, and some way too many.

As for balance?

Have you seen how hard anni maras dots tick?
A Powertechs CGC dot ticks harder than ours.
Have you even been lolsmahed? Our aoes are not even auto-crit, nor break 5k.
Have you forgotten we have only light armour?
Maybe it slipped your mind we have no defensive cooldowns?
Do you forget we have no execute move, or any buff to damage whatsoever when the target is under 30% health?

Plenty of classes can wipe half our health, through a bubble in 2-3GCDs, and that is cool, so long as our damage remains totally subpar, unable to do jack to anyone? Coolio, well Bioware got that message alright.



So you have set up that requires, death field, affliction, creeping terror, and presumably enough casts of force lightning to get a wrath proc for crushing darkness, what 6 GCD set up say? And it does what at the moment? Absolutely jack. A sin comes along hits shroud and goes "Lulz sucker!", and we are stumped, can't even use our stat stick because we have no willpower to damage to get through shroud. Our DoTs need a HUGE buff to make them worthwhile. We as a class can be WIPED in 2-3GCDs, and you're saying that a 6GCD setup shouldn't do meaningful damage. Alright then. Bioware got that message too, pretty sure....



Right? And have you seen how often you can lolsmash? Death field like Smash is on 15 sec cooldown, except the Rage tree has ways to lower it's cooldown, something I believe Sorcs can't do with Death Field. It's totally balanced, because it would be exactly that - burst, which is the only thing that matters in PvP, and we don't have.

But in case you missed the point about balance - the squishier the class, the higher the damage it has to do to compensate. So, no it shouldn't be hitting for the same as other classes' AoEs, it should be hitting harder, unless we get defensive CDs to compensate.

Issue is you seem to lack understanding as far as burst vs sustained. Once sniper blow that massive 10kish damage opener, snipe go back on 1,5 sec cast, ambush 12 sec cd 1,5 sec cast if done right.

Still good damage, but NEVER will it be even close to hitting 5k/GCD.

Ambush is NOT spammable. I really suggest you actually go learn exact damage of other classes before talking about them.

Same for annihilation ticks, they tick hard, but are cleansable and don't have totally a 100% uptime, more 80% ish. Berserk allows them a burst, but overall they will account for 40% of your dps. We are far from 5k/GCD again.

They are just somewhat more satisfying from seeing them.

But lets suppose a sniper and a sorc both have a theorical 2000 dps over 20 seconds

That means both will dish out 40k damage in 20 seconds

Burst is not raising that number, its concentrating that dps.

So sniper might do 30k in the first 10 seconds, and 10k after while cd get off. Sorc currently does 20k/20k in that same laps of time, with little burst.

You have many kind of burst, and their drawbacks. Some are linked to cd, some are just highway to no ressources if used too much. (ex start spamming overload shot with a sniper).

If I was to design a burst for sorc, I'd look at something that degenerates force ressources fast, chaining some attacks that are just too expensive to keep using in a PvE boss fight, and avoid raising parse damage too high, and maybe you have the start of a fix for the class pvp.

Chemic_al's Avatar


Chemic_al
12.01.2012 , 05:45 PM | #43
Quote: Originally Posted by verfallen View Post
Issue is you seem to lack understanding as far as burst vs sustained. Once sniper blow that massive 10kish damage opener, snipe go back on 1,5 sec cast, ambush 12 sec cd 1,5 sec cast if done right.
Patronization noted...... my understanding of sustained vs burst is fine, thank you very much.

Quote:
But lets suppose a sniper and a sorc both have a theorical 2000 dps over 20 seconds

That means both will dish out 40k damage in 20 seconds

Burst is not raising that number, its concentrating that dps.
Like WOW dude, you really blew my mind what that simple example. Like OMG!!!!!! (/sarcasm)

But perhaps you seem to ignore that burst is what matters in PvP, and sorc DoTs are a joke. Any competent healer can either purge/heal through them. Burst is what matters. Sorcs need burst. If we can't do that 10k in 2-3GCD as a PvP dps spec every 12-15s or so, we suck. End of.

So to fix sorcs,

Madness needs harder hitting DoTs, with DoT protection. We should have a buff, like Pyro does, that does more damage on enemies under 30%. Death field needs to hit 5 targets.
Lightning is the more "bursty" spec, but far too RNG dependant. How often do Chain lightning/Barrage procs come up simultaneously, to be of any use as "burst"? Noo where near enough, and TB needs to be instant. So if you could chain, Chain Lightning, Barrage, TB, in 3 GCDs and it be reasonably reliable, then yeah.
Both specs, basic attacks Force Lightning, Lightning Strike have to hit harder. THey are both interuptable and there goes your main source of procs. So perhaps they should be made uninteurptable?

So what does that leave us? Hybrid specs that turn us into poor dps/heals with copious amounts of cc to whittle away enemies. Well isn't that just gosh darn awesome....?

MidichIorian's Avatar


MidichIorian
12.01.2012 , 06:41 PM | #44
I'm actually enjoying PvP at the moment but it's all because of the bubble stun. As a ranged class I'm not affected by the stuns and the bubbles I throw on my melee team mates are preventing the melees on the other team from ever reaching me.

I would be fine with replacing the stun from the bubbles I throw on team mates with a root, while keeping it as a stun when thrown on myself but changing the resolve value or getting rid of it would cut deep into the class's viability.

My wishlist:

*Increase damage on shock and FiB. 50 % would not be too much, all things considered.

*Increase damage on dots. Some are in favor of simply shortening the applied time but that would require that you re-applied the dots much more often so it wouldnt work unless madness became a pure dot spec and the dots actually could kill . So in both scenarios we're in need of a damage buff.

*Some of the abilities in the lightning and madness trees should be passive and core abilties. First thing that comes to mind is "no CD on force lightning". This is our core ability, since melee weapons are useless, yet here we're forced to spec for no CD on it.

Chemic_al's Avatar


Chemic_al
12.02.2012 , 04:32 AM | #45
Quote: Originally Posted by MidichIorian View Post
*Some of the abilities in the lightning and madness trees should be passive and core abilties. First thing that comes to mind is "no CD on force lightning". This is our core ability, since melee weapons are useless, yet here we're forced to spec for no CD on it.
I don't think that's needed, lightning spec isn't using it unless they get a barrage proc, and madness get its because it's their filler attack.

However, both lightning and madness need their main attacks, lightning strike and force lightning respectively, made uninteruptable, and buffed in damage.

Fact remains parses show sorc DPS is now falling way behind other ACs, 15% or more is no joke now, and how Bioware's uber metric system is failing to see it, is beyond me. So I can only infer, coupled with their unwillingness to comment on Sorc pvp or pve, they are just ignoring us. They certainly ignored every comment in the class feedback section.

AdmiralParmesan's Avatar


AdmiralParmesan
12.02.2012 , 05:59 AM | #46
Root/slow immunity on force speed should definitely be a baseline class trait not limited to the healing tree, the same with the extra 30% on our instant heal in the corruption tree. That instant heal is almost worthless as is to a dps sorc, not completely worthless, but far from a life saver.

In reality we have no burst aside from making all the procs line up in full lightning spec. We have little to no way to get long casts off against confident melee players and have no defensive cooldowns. Full madness also has pretty bad force management problems to boot, and there is no way to really "regen" force back while in combat aside from spamming consumption, which only makes force management/surviviability problems worse. This is highly problematic and simple buffs to our damage won't fix the fundamental flaws this class has.


One decent idea would be to make static barrier when casted on ourselves make us immune to roots/slows for 4 seconds. Or perhaps make static barrier make us immune to interrupt while it is up.
Depreva (Sith Sorcerer) - Prophecy of the Five-

fungihoujo's Avatar


fungihoujo
12.02.2012 , 06:44 AM | #47
Quote: Originally Posted by AdmiralParmesan View Post
Root/slow immunity on force speed should definitely be a baseline class trait not limited to the healing tree, the same with the extra 30% on our instant heal in the corruption tree. That instant heal is almost worthless as is to a dps sorc, not completely worthless, but far from a life saver.

In reality we have no burst aside from making all the procs line up in full lightning spec. We have little to no way to get long casts off against confident melee players and have no defensive cooldowns. Full madness also has pretty bad force management problems to boot, and there is no way to really "regen" force back while in combat aside from spamming consumption, which only makes force management/surviviability problems worse. This is highly problematic and simple buffs to our damage won't fix the fundamental flaws this class has.


One decent idea would be to make static barrier when casted on ourselves make us immune to roots/slows for 4 seconds. Or perhaps make static barrier make us immune to interrupt while it is up.
Entirely agreed- our lack of good interrupt immunity at baseline means we're too easy to halt as a hybrid, healer or madness... and considering lightning damage blows...

Our damage across the board sucks, it isn't scaling well at all. We definitely need root immunity to be baseline force speed- make the talent instead grant full CC immunity.

Bubble needs to scale better- it should be able to block fully any attack... so if people are smashing for 8k, bubble needs to meet that insane damage- or, better yet, do something about such high damage, make 6k crits the absolute top- and 6k bubbles what we get in WH aug.

Some non interruptable abilities.

Replace no CD force lightning (which should be baseline) with a talent that instead makes FL usable while moving in madness- lightning strike same thing for lightning tree- give us mobility. Give us back DI instant procs, and honestly, CL with madness procs. It's not going to put our damage on level with mara or snipers anyway.

We're parsing far below others in pve, and sucking in pvp burst- so you can give us some more heavy damage and it will only balance out both for us a bit- it won't give us an advantage in pve until we're even in pve- which'll take alot.

Timias's Avatar


Timias
12.02.2012 , 10:27 AM | #48
Quote: Originally Posted by Sirokai View Post
I saw the 'bioware staff post' symbol next to this thread and I got excited thinking they may have acknowledged sorc issues in pvp. lolnope, no post from bioware. sad times.
There is the prime indicator of just what the Developers think of the Sorcerer. A tease of in indicator, making us think they posted, just to find that "promise" of a post as empty as their promises of anything else.

I have a solution to the Sorcerer problem.

Only allow Sorcerers to wear and use the items that the Inquistor comes with. (Give the Sorcerer a white quality Lightsaber at creation so we can have a lightsaber. No bonus stats, or Force Power, that does 1 damage per strike)
Only allow Sorcerers to use the combat skills Saber Strike and Thrash, make sure no stat boosts the damage.
Force Lighting heals enemy NPC's and Enemy Players in PvP.
Remove 1% of the starting health each level gained, to a maximum of 50% original health lost at level 50.

There you go. Sorcerer fixed.
Level 50 Sorcerer (DPS - Now mostly retired - crafting only, thank you BioWare)
Level 50 Juggernaut (Tank) - Level 50 Mercenary (DPS)
Level 50 Sniper (Crafting Character - wanted the buff)

SoonerJBD's Avatar


SoonerJBD
12.02.2012 , 01:28 PM | #49
I guess I'm in the minority. I'm spec'd full balance/madness with my sage and my sorcerer and consistently in the top 2 or 3 in damage done every warzone, and I do 100k heals just through our free self heal and the healing from my dot crits.

PvP is frustrating at first, but that's true for every class. Getting matched up against war hero geared opponents when you are just starting out is a terrible grind. I'm currently in about half war hero gear, and I don't find survivability to be too much of an issue.

We don't have defensive cooldowns. That is why we got a free self heal that crits for 5k on low cooldown. Combine that with force armor and med packs/stims, and you have quite a bit of survivability.

I don't understand why people think sorcerers/sages should be able to stand toe-to-toe with a melee class at melee range. I own melee classes all the time, and I do it by using the tools at my disposal. As a Madness sorc, I have a two second root on 9 second cooldown, force slow, knockback, a stun, a mez, a spammable filler attack with auto-slow, escape speed. I mean, if you are letting a melee class beat on you long enough to kill you every time, it is a l2p issue.

If I'm caught when all my stuns are on cooldown along with my stun-breaker, yeah, I can get whipped. That's true for any class.

The one criticism that I think has some merit is our lack of an execute. Sorcs aren't broken in PvP. They could use a minor damage buff, perhaps from an execute. The real issue is the continued lack of a nerf for the derp-smash spec. We are very competitive in DPS if you know what you are doing. It's just not a face-roll class like Marauders are.

SoonerJBD's Avatar


SoonerJBD
12.02.2012 , 01:30 PM | #50
And I will agree that the devs have been shamefully unresponsive to the concerns of sorcerers and sages. Marauders get a dev response every time they start a QQ thread. Sages and sorcerers have made legitimate complaints for months about damage (particularly in PvE) and never seem to get a response from a dev.