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Time for a PvP Fix

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fungihoujo's Avatar


fungihoujo
01.21.2013 , 02:06 AM | #401
Quote: Originally Posted by SoonerJBD View Post
They didn't lose all the subs because of PvP balance. And ranked warzones haven't even been out nine months.

You keep making these posts listing all these things we are terrible at, and I just don't buy it. If all your claims were true, I wouldn't see so many sorcs doing good damage in warzones. It isn't just personal experience I am considering. Again, I concede that there is a slight gap with some other specs, but the idea that we need this huge number of buffs you are suggesting is just not based in reality. We have lots of tools that you don't consider. We get a bubble and a free self heal, both on low cooldown. We have kiting tools. You can deride them all you like, but they are there and they do help. And if they buffed the class like you are suggesting, it would become overpowered worse than derp-smash.
If we became able to have one root break at baseline, had better pure builds for a class where pures aren't used at all in pvp, had a better force regen mechanic for corruption, had some casting mobility, had the ability to put out burst single target damage on par with other classes, had a root on overload at baseline, and either had some defensives like every other class or some interrupt protection/casting mobility on a few abilities- we would become as powerful as a class that-
-has the game's best mobility, defensives and almost all their abilities are mobile, instant and uninterruptable
-has baseline root, baseline gap closer on shorter CD than our escape, baseline stealth escape, baseline team speed boost, baseline instant aoe mez
-has the only ability which is considered 'you must purge even if it's not on you or you're about to get destroyed'
-has an aoe auto crit that's also the game's hardest hitting ability, and is usable multiple times a minute
-trauma debuff

Ya, I don't think so- you can see sorcs doing good damage in WZ? Of course you can- it's easy to do good damage when nobody targets you- I've had plenty of matches where I've been allowed to freecast and can do double the damage I do when someone's attacking me; you can't compare how we do against bad players to how we do against better players- I concede that we can dominate bads with ease.


But more powerful than smashers? You think sorcs with those things I listed are going to suddenly become so strong that three of us can global just about anyone? That a sorc will suddenly kill people in 6 seconds without them getting much of a chance to do anything? That people will see a sorc and start acting like their allies are radioactive while they run away to avoid being aoe destroyed? Most of the changes I'm asking for aren't even damage changes- and most of the damage boosts I'm asking for are for pures- which have huge problems right now.

If you were to spam just damage- there isn't a single class that can't outbust a sorc, most by a long shot- we're a mage class, we should be some of the best damage, not the absolutely worst.

Not even close.

You're right about RWZ- forgot they'd been canned last minute before patch 1.2 and moved to 1.3 instead- even so, that's 7 months? Still a long time to go with such one sided balance- and with no change in sight either.


Frankly, you keep saying 'sorcs are fine, you do lots of damage, I see it in WZ'- do you play a sorc at all? No offense, but anyone who considers the damage at the end of a warzone to actually mean something knows absolutely nothing about how to be a valuable part of warzone teamplay- survival, ability to take/protect objectives, ability to handle healers, ability to get fast kills, ability to get abilities off- these are far more important, and we're tied for dead last with mercs, the other useless class, on everything except for protecting objectives- and even then, we're only really good for supporting the main node, we make terrible off node defenders.

Yes- I get it, there's dozens of sorcs who've shown off how they managed to do 900k damage against a team with five healers, when they free cast the entire game- and end up losing miserably and getting 5 kills. THAT IS NOT A GOOD THING.

Chemic_al's Avatar


Chemic_al
01.21.2013 , 06:01 AM | #402
Quote: Originally Posted by SoonerJBD View Post
They didn't lose all the subs because of PvP balance. And ranked warzones haven't even been out nine months.

You keep making these posts listing all these things we are terrible at, and I just don't buy it. If all your claims were true, I wouldn't see so many sorcs doing good damage in warzones. It isn't just personal experience I am considering. Again, I concede that there is a slight gap with some other specs, but the idea that we need this huge number of buffs you are suggesting is just not based in reality. We have lots of tools that you don't consider. We get a bubble and a free self heal, both on low cooldown. We have kiting tools. You can deride them all you like, but they are there and they do help. And if they buffed the class like you are suggesting, it would become overpowered worse than derp-smash.
Self heal and bubble, both keep you alive, what one GCD longer as a dps sorc? And using either one means you didn't do dps on that GCD.

That's right up there with Shroud/Resilience and Undying Rage/Guarded by Bioware.... oh wait....

I also find it somewhat amusing as the "force masters" of the game, we can't use the force to shield ourselves as well as our more melee focused cousins, namely sins/shadows can. Odd that. And no bubble is totally meh compared to shroud.

SoonerJBD's Avatar


SoonerJBD
01.21.2013 , 10:55 AM | #403
Quote: Originally Posted by fungihoujo View Post
Frankly, you keep saying 'sorcs are fine, you do lots of damage, I see it in WZ'- do you play a sorc at all? No offense, but anyone who considers the damage at the end of a warzone to actually mean something knows absolutely nothing about how to be a valuable part of warzone teamplay- survival, ability to take/protect objectives, ability to handle healers, ability to get fast kills, ability to get abilities off- these are far more important, and we're tied for dead last with mercs, the other useless class, on everything except for protecting objectives- and even then, we're only really good for supporting the main node, we make terrible off node defenders.

Yes- I get it, there's dozens of sorcs who've shown off how they managed to do 900k damage against a team with five healers, when they free cast the entire game- and end up losing miserably and getting 5 kills. THAT IS NOT A GOOD THING.
I have not been arguing "sorcs are fine." I've said repeatedly we could use a slight buff. I just don't agree that the class is as utterly useless as you make it out to be.

I play a Sorc and a Sage. Full War Hero on both for several months. I do perfectly fine on both. It's not just a question of damage. I've seen plenty of good Sages utterly dominate regular warzones, and I'm not talking about myself.

We absolutely need a buff for ranked warzones especially. I think a defensive cooldown is reasonable, along with a slight damage buff. I just think you have to be reasonable about your expectations.

A lot of people want to be the OP class of the moment. I don't think that is going to happen. If you want 6k+ AOE crits, roll a derpsmash.

Chemic_al's Avatar


Chemic_al
01.21.2013 , 12:47 PM | #404
Quote: Originally Posted by SoonerJBD View Post
A lot of people want to be the OP class of the moment. I don't think that is going to happen. If you want 6k+ AOE crits, roll a derpsmash.
Meh, no class should have an ability like that, never mind it's instant and near as makes no difference unavoidable.

But you're right in one respect, it's pretty likely marauders will not be nerfed in any significant manner, so rolling a mara is probably a good idea.

Sartanis's Avatar


Sartanis
01.21.2013 , 01:49 PM | #405
Quote: Originally Posted by -IceHawk- View Post
Sorcerers should produce the highest damage potential in the game, period.

Balance is a constant tension between two polar opposites:

[Survivability]---------------------[Netural]--------------------[Output]

Survivability is defined as maximal Hit-Point Potential, Armor Rating, Mitigation, Defensive-Cooldowns, and Mobility. Output is defined as the ability to produce meaningful damage or healing that is both sufficient and necessary to kill or heal a target.

In theory an Advanced-Class that excels at one end of this spectrum, to retain overall class balance, requires concomitant inferiority on the other end.

Sorcerers suffer from the worst survivability in the game, and yet also suffer from perhaps the 2nd worst (Mercenaries/Commandos) Damage Output in the game.

Either our defensive capabilities need to be brought in line with our Damage-Potential, allowing us to actually survive long enough for our DoT-damage to be effective or our Damage-Potential needs to increased.

In this sense I would argue that Madness requires a mere 5% damage increase, ideally as front-loaded DoT damage. The spec's mobility and CC capabilities will otherwise allow it to survive.

Lightning on the other hand suffers from nigh-complete immobility and cast-sensitive attacks, thereby requiring either a major defensive redesign or a more significant boost to damage.

Yes, a high-level player who extracts the greatest potential from a Min/Maxed AC is going to be effective.

Balance however is not a subject for the outliers, it is a matter for the median and mean values of a specification, and at the moment our AC suffers horribly in that regard.
I applaud you, good sir.
Peace is a lie, there is only Passion. Through Passion, I gain Strength.
Through Strength, I gain Power. Through Power, I gain Victory.
Through Victory, my Chains are broken. The Force shall free me.

fungihoujo's Avatar


fungihoujo
01.22.2013 , 06:50 AM | #406
Quote: Originally Posted by SoonerJBD View Post
I have not been arguing "sorcs are fine." I've said repeatedly we could use a slight buff. I just don't agree that the class is as utterly useless as you make it out to be.

I play a Sorc and a Sage. Full War Hero on both for several months. I do perfectly fine on both. It's not just a question of damage. I've seen plenty of good Sages utterly dominate regular warzones, and I'm not talking about myself.

We absolutely need a buff for ranked warzones especially. I think a defensive cooldown is reasonable, along with a slight damage buff. I just think you have to be reasonable about your expectations.

A lot of people want to be the OP class of the moment. I don't think that is going to happen. If you want 6k+ AOE crits, roll a derpsmash.
It's not at the moment- since 1.2, back in what, April? Mara have been the OP class- whether it's been anni, carnage or rage has changed, but there hasn't been a point where they haven't been top dog. It's a class with just about everything- plus the hardest hitting ability in the game, that auto crits, is aoe, and can be used regularly.

This isn't about 'can do well' this is about being grossly outmatched- it takes no effort to have great defensives, damage and mobility as other classes- while it takes a huge amount of effort as a sorc... to have no defensives, poor burst, and easily countered mobility. I am perfectly aware we can still do things- but when you're absent from RWZ as DPS, and even your healing role is contingent on an ability that in this very thread they promised to nerf- a 'slight' boost and a single defensive is not going to be enough to make this class on par with others.

There shouldn't be OP classes period- but if they refuse to change the OP classes, they should bring other classes up to their level. What reasoning could you possibly give to have a class be that much better than any other... and for well over half a year at that?

And this isn't about expectations- I don't expect anything, heck, the only response BW has had to this thread is telling us we're going to be nerfed- my expectations are abysmally low for this game's pvp class balance, and my expectations haven't changed since they started chain nerfing the game's worst classes and chain buffing the undisputed champions.

Right now, it is a guarantee to see 1-3 mara/juggs in dps roles on a RWZ team, it's pretty much a guarantee to see a sniper, a PT, and a sin- it's also a guarantee that there won't be an op, merc or sorc in a dps role. Slight buffs don't make up for such astounding imbalances that we are completely absent from a role we are supposed to have- slight buffs make up for things like the burst difference between a PT and sin, or the survivability of a sniper versus a jugg- slight buffs don't however make up for the difference between an immobile class that takes three times longer to burst the same damage, and has zero defensives versus a class that has half a minute of 50% mitigation, an immunity debuff, another mitigation buff, an accuracy debuff, combat stealth and better armour to boot.

Or the difference between classes that have multiple heavy damage, armour penetrating attacks- versus a class that can have at most a single internal damage spell which does decent damage.


We're a mage class ffs- in any other game, we make up for having such poor mitigation with defensives, control, high mobility which includes stun breaks (blink), and most of all- heavy, armour avoiding damage. Instead- we have zero defensives, a short range stun and the game's worst mez, a short range KB, a bubble stun that's going to get nerfed- no armour penetration, a single root break only in the healing tree, a spec with good damage if left alone that is an extremely easy target to interrupt and lock down, and another spec with slow damage that is very easy to nullify with any healer.

Baseline- our class looks like absolute junk compared to other classes- and our pure builds are some of the game's worst. We lack most vital pvp abilities like trauma debuff, armour pen, CC break- we're one of the only classes without a perma snare or baseline root- our one escape can be countered at baseline by ANY ability that controls a character- stun, mez, root, pull, push, leap.

Are we useless? No- and I've been pointing out as I have time what we can do in the guide I'm writing- we definitely aren't useless.

But- we're also far, far behind the big five for dps, and without the stun bubble we're far behind ops for healing.

What from my OP have I said that's been unreasonable? I'm asking for things that all the other classes have- things that would maybe make up for all the deficiencies we have in spades. I'm not even asking for huge dps buffs, mostly for burst boosts and for pure builds- builds that are so heavily flawed they've been considered poor for pvp SINCE LAUNCH- to get boosted as they should have been in 1.2 when BW decided to nerf the everliving crap out of hybrids.

Even before 1.2- I knew operatives, sins, mara, juggs, snipers, PTs- all who could chew up and spit out sorcs... yet we got our instant DI proc destroyed, CL wrath destroyed, consumption force regen destroyed- nothing in return. Now, we loom on our one viable RWZ spec being destroyed because of marauder whining, and I'm just supposed to sit back and say 'well, sure they messed up big time with 1.2, and sure they've done next to nothing for the past eight months- but I'm sure suddenly now they're going to do some good balancing for us'- not a chance.

Perhaps it's foolish to make a fuss when it'll fall on deaf ears- maybe we've given BW too many chances, I don't know. However, as long as I am playing this game, I'm going to do what I can do to try to get something good done for this class- I didn't follow this game for over two years pre-launch only to give up right away. If we don't see anything good come of this by the expansion- if we just get the bubble stun nerf and they leave it at that- well, I tried- and that'll be my cue to move on, and you won't have to worry about threads like this popping up with sorc negativity anymore.

I'm just hopeful, I don't know why, that this game's pvp can still be changed into something balanced- if BW wants to.

As long as they're chain buffing mara though- maybe they really don't give a **** about balance after all.

Siorac's Avatar


Siorac
01.22.2013 , 09:53 AM | #407
Thing is, Sorcerer isn't a bad class on paper. Even as a DPS. Take full Madness (I have zero experience with Lightning) as an example.

They have great overall damage. A good Madness Sorcerer will put up higher overall numbers than almost any class except ragemonkeys. They have a hard stun and an instant 8 sec mez, a knockback, sprint, bubble and self heals. And 30 meter range, of course. One on one, given enough time, a good Madness Sorcerer can beat almost everyone. Or at least has the tools to do so.

The problem is that PvP in this game does not value this. You won't have a lengthy war of kiting with a Marauder: either another will jump you or you'll eat an Explosive Dart and a Thermal Detonator out of nowhere. And above all, PvP values burst, the ability to kill things really quickly. And Sorcerers are not good at that.

I mean okay, they have "burst". If you have deathmark, Creeping Terror, Affliction and Crushing Darkness all up on a single target, his health will go down pretty fast. But it's hard to call that "burst" when it takes roughly 2.7 weeks to set it up. Also, Madness is very vulnerable to cleansing and has horrible Force management.

So, I think the damage should be "reallocated" somehow, to allow for better burst and better Force management. An overall damage buff is not needed in my opinion: just burst instead of death by a million papercuts, Force management, maybe dot protection. You probably covered all of this in the OP but I wanted to put my opinion out there, too.

Edonidd's Avatar


Edonidd
01.22.2013 , 02:07 PM | #408
There are just too many problems with the class for an easy fix. The biggest problems though are just the lack of a single consistant focused approach to class design.

Warriors are designed around having rage/focus being the limiting factor in the damage. They have to take time to build up rage in order to use their extremely damaging abilities. But at high levels they are given free or increased rage production, all of their trees have abilities which lower the cost of those damaging abilities, and even get damaging or utility abilities that also generate rage. So they skip the rage building part and just get to focus on the damaging parts.

My sniper the first thing I learned was you can burst like crazy, but will run out of your resource quickly. The first thing snipers and operatives learn is they are definitely a resource limited class. Going below 60 energy will mean less resource production, which will mean less DPS. Same resource basicly as ammo and heat on BH's and troopers. If you run out of resources, you will be.stuck doing resource free rifle or hammer shots or whatever its called. Well after you use your free baseline ability that gives free resources.

Same with Assassins. Resource limited. Big ways to increase your DPS is to increase your resource generation, or reduce the resource e cost. Which again their trees do.

Sorcerers are not intended to ne resource limited. We have no resource free attacks at all (well I guess we have lightsaber strike or whatever it is called that you last used at level 1 or 2. And we have no way to get free resources, in fact we pay a huge price if we need to get more resources, it lowers our regeneration AND pays a significant health cost. We are intended to ne a cast time/and design limited damage class. Resources aren't our limiting factor, the actual design of the class is.

In short burst fights with extremely low TTK, resource management and resource regeneration almost goes out the window. All that matters is burst damage and as the only design limited class we can't do that. As other classes get increased resource production, management, reduced cost, and free resource abilities; so do we. We don't get increased damage abilities... Worse is that other classes do get increased damage or armor penetration abilities to go along with their increased resources. Those classes get exponentially better, we get additionally better.

Then there are the headscratchers or what I like to refer to as rubbing salt in our wounds.

Sorcerers are the ranged casting class, but our sister inquisitors actually can do more damage with all of the castable ranged baseline abilities. Shock does more damage in I believe every Assassin spec than any sorcerer spec. Force Lightning actually does more damage as a tank specced Assassin than a DPS specced sorc who focuses on using force lightning as much as possible. Salt in the wound.

Melee classes can close range with 1 button press. They can also do it on a shorter CD than our force speed to get away. And can do so from our max range. Salt in the wound.

Damage over time abilities don't break stealth, don't interrupt captures, and don't do more damage. They are purgable and do break CC though. Salt in the.wound.

Other DOT classes get dots in addition to regular abilities. Or at least get additional damage or process based on their dots. Cull, railshot, burns, bleeds, etc. Ours cost resources and GCD's and 2/3's of them don't do anything at all until 3 seconds later. We can litterally waste 2 GCD's and the resources from casting affliction and creeping terror only to have them both purged without doing any damage at all. Let me purge that 7k smash and 5k viscous throw that follows it. Give me 3 seconds after a smash to hit purge and have it do zero damage and I would never EVER complain about smash again. Like not one person has ever complained about affliction... Unless they are Sorcerers complaining about how ****** it is. Salt in the wound.

Adding all of it up though, and the class would need a complete redesign from the ground up to be competitive. Instead the only fix we get is they give us a free self only heal. Oh, you're DPS? Well that's fine heal yourself and that should now make you a better DPS... Design is flawed.

Chemic_al's Avatar


Chemic_al
01.22.2013 , 02:58 PM | #409
Quote: Originally Posted by Edonidd View Post

Sorcerers are the ranged casting class, but our sister inquisitors actually can do more damage with all of the castable ranged baseline abilities. Shock does more damage in I believe every Assassin spec than any sorcerer spec. Force Lightning actually does more damage as a tank specced Assassin than a DPS specced sorc who focuses on using force lightning as much as possible. Salt in the wound.
Well Sins get a passive 25% shock buff (like why? the can use their sabre to hurt people, we can't), but not only does that tank FL do more damage with 3 stack harnessed darkness, but it heals them too and is uninterupptable! But yes, why the heck madness sorcs don't get anything like this (FL self-healing when death mark on the subject), and I can't for the life of me work out how they can make master strike/ravage uninterruptable but madness sorcs FL isn't. It is as you say, salt in an already very deep wound.

But I also can't work out why we as the "mage" class don't get shroud, but sins do.

Quote:
Adding all of it up though, and the class would need a complete redesign from the ground up to be competitive. Instead the only fix we get is they give us a free self only heal. Oh, you're DPS? Well that's fine heal yourself and that should now make you a better DPS... Design is flawed.
Yeah the self-heal makes force management as a healer in PvE a joke, but does nothing for a dps sorc.

But re force managment, a lightning sorc never has resource problems, what with passive regen from the filler attack (lightning strike) and effusion, and having to take either more force or the force cost reduction to actually take talents higher up in the tree. Madness yeah it sucks on a whole new level to run out of force cos you've had to keep reapplying dots etc.

wwkingms's Avatar


wwkingms
01.23.2013 , 01:23 AM | #410
Quote: Originally Posted by SoonerJBD View Post
Why not go one further. Unsubscribe and stop playing the game. That'll show 'em.

Meanwhile, those of us who top warzone charts with our sorcs on a regular basis will keep playing and enjoying the class.
i tired, i unsubbed in june and stated balance issues as my reasoning..

i rejoined in november hoping some balance had occurred


and well.. we all know it hasnt
NIHIL

THE BASTION