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Time for a PvP Fix

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AdmiralParmesan's Avatar


AdmiralParmesan
01.11.2013 , 01:56 AM | #351
The only problems I see with sorc damage is getting off casts and really ARMOR.

Our damage would be a lot more reliable if so much of our damage wasn't mitigated by armor. In pve our damage goes way up on a target with the marauder or sniper armor debuff. This is a slight problem as a large chunk of our damage comes from force lightning, lightning strike, crushing darkness and chain lightning all of which are mitigated by armor.

If we had better ways to get off casts and a semi reliable way to help us against heavy armor targets I think our damage would be in a great place right now.

Other than that we would need

General: A defensive cooldown
Madness: Better force regen mechanic, some decent way of accomplishing burst outside of death field
Lightning: maybe a lower cooldown on polarity shift? its a long cooldown for the only tool we have to get casts off under pressure and its not like it makes us immune to cc or anything


That and I still want something like the drain life, fear or battle meditation abilities that were in KOTOR I and KOTOR II
Depreva (Sith Sorcerer) - Prophecy of the Five-

Chemic_al's Avatar


Chemic_al
01.11.2013 , 02:50 AM | #352
Quote: Originally Posted by orryko View Post
How is it decent burst every 2 mins? You can burst someone every 15ish seconds. Do you want me to link dozens of ss from the past week of me breaking 5k cl's every match? This past match I hit a sentinel for 5300 tb and 5433 cl back to back. What class can burst higher than that in the span of 2 seconds? None. My burst rotation is similar to depreva except I do tb and cl back to back followed by fl and shock. Even if you hit someone with cds up, that's still a good 8-10k with all of those spells....assuming you're geared properly.

As depreva also mentioned, unless people know you really well on your server, chances are you're gonna drop a bomb on them before they know what hit them. As he also said, it's very smart to tab affliction on multiple targets so you can switch at any time and burst when they have no cds up.
I think that sent was undergeared too, and that burst you keep quoting just isn't reliable, you need a proc for it to happen, hence you can't guarantee it's up when you need it. Sweep then dispatch could easily do the same, probably more. A sniper can easily match that burst, never mind a powertech, and the powertech's is guaranteed and not interruptable.
And with regards to another post, I have been hit for 6.9k by a jug smash with 1200ish expertise and mostly full EWH - it happens.

orryko's Avatar


orryko
01.11.2013 , 03:19 AM | #353
Quote: Originally Posted by Chemic_al View Post
I think that sent was undergeared too, and that burst you keep quoting just isn't reliable, you need a proc for it to happen, hence you can't guarantee it's up when you need it. Sweep then dispatch could easily do the same, probably more. A sniper can easily match that burst, never mind a powertech, and the powertech's is guaranteed and not interruptable.
And with regards to another post, I have been hit for 6.9k by a jug smash with 1200ish expertise and mostly full EWH - it happens.
i agree that other classes can do it more easily and more consistently. i also agree burst happens on us. it's just not as bad as the doomsayers on the forums claim. they act like they are interrupted, cleansed, stunned, smashed every 10 seconds. at my gear level though, i would say my burst is very consistent. i'm almost always number one damage in every wz and always hitting 4k-5ks every time i get on someone.

Darkallex's Avatar


Darkallex
01.11.2013 , 05:13 AM | #354
Quote: Originally Posted by orryko View Post
i agree that other classes can do it more easily and more consistently. i also agree burst happens on us. it's just not as bad as the doomsayers on the forums claim. they act like they are interrupted, cleansed, stunned, smashed every 10 seconds. at my gear level though, i would say my burst is very consistent. i'm almost always number one damage in every wz and always hitting 4k-5ks every time i get on someone.
Ofc when I face full pugs I don't have major problems either.BUT that has to do with my experience playing 1 year full pvp,my half EWH gear and the balanced stats after a lot of study.I can easily hit 400-500k dmg on such occasions and even hit low geared ppl with 4,5k DF or force lightning(ticks added ofc).
The major problem comes when you have to face organized,well geared,experienced pvpers.
Last night was matched 5 times in a row with a half premade group.Full of shadows,vanguards,a couple of sage healers and a couple of sentinels.
All I could see was immune,immune,3 digit numbers,1.5k dmg on crits,couldn't kill healers and when it came to sentinels they hit for 6 and 7k on me.To avoid missunderstandings...I have 1211 expert,951 bonus dmg,34,89% crit buffed and 76,80% multi,which means that I am not low geared.
So...the big problems come when we have to face such groups because we don't have the burst dmg to press healers,most of our attacks are being reduced,we don't have a cd that protects us a bit more when the oponent is immune to stuns or dmg (plz don't refer to polarity shift...cause it's a joke compaired to snipers' immunities to inters) and when we are dragged close to smashers or pyros...you know the outcome.
If you are so lucky to enter all the time full pugged groups or abandon WZs that have premades then it's another story.In that case...yes my sorc is 90% top dps(hitting even 710k in a full duration death star),with 12+ medals(reaching up to 19) and a lot of objective points.
Moradi - Sith Sorcerer - The Red Eclipse

orryko's Avatar


orryko
01.11.2013 , 05:22 AM | #355
Quote: Originally Posted by Darkallex View Post
Ofc when I face full pugs I don't have major problems either.BUT that has to do with my experience playing 1 year full pvp,my half EWH gear and the balanced stats after a lot of study.I can easily hit 400-500k dmg on such occasions and even hit low geared ppl with 4,5k DF or force lightning(ticks added ofc).
The major problem comes when you have to face organized,well geared,experienced pvpers.
Last night was matched 5 times in a row with a half premade group.Full of shadows,vanguards,a couple of sage healers and a couple of sentinels.
All I could see was immune,immune,3 digit numbers,1.5k dmg on crits,couldn't kill healers and when it came to sentinels they hit for 6 and 7k on me.To avoid missunderstandings...I have 1211 expert,951 bonus dmg,34,89% crit buffed and 76,80% multi,which means that I am not low geared.
So...the big problems come when we have to face such groups because we don't have the burst dmg to press healers,most of our attacks are being reduced,we don't have a cd that protects us a bit more when the oponent is immune to stuns or dmg (plz don't refer to polarity shift...cause it's a joke compaired to snipers' immunities to inters) and when we are dragged close to smashers or pyros...you know the outcome.
If you are so lucky to enter all the time full pugged groups or abandon WZs that have premades then it's another story.In that case...yes my sorc is 90% top dps(hitting even 710k in a full duration death star),with 12+ medals(reaching up to 19) and a lot of objective points.
i get what you mean. I had a few matches myself tonight where I was the only heavy dps and everyone else was 100k or lower. We played another equally good premade who had better than average pugs. At certain times, bursting down the entire team was out of the question. As I said in a previous post, I base most of my opinions off of rated or premade play where everyone is relatively equal in gear and skill. I think sorcs have a few issues...namely they should get dispel protection, some kind of move while casting cooldown, and some form of defensive cooldown, whether it's an ice-block type ability or increased armor.

fungihoujo's Avatar


fungihoujo
01.11.2013 , 11:32 AM | #356
DF and TB can crit above 5k specifically because they are internal- they avoid mitigation. Which is where the problem is with pretty much everything else- we have no armour penetration as a class with the worst armour ourselves.

In other games- magic isn't mitigated period. This game though, we're pretty much dead last when it comes to penetration- at most we end up with one hard hitting ability (DF or TB) that penetrates.

On top of that- any burst combo you can get off as a sorc is going to be easier to get off as anything else- because PT, sins, mara, juggs are all using instants, have great gap closers, and sometimes even things like CC immunity. When they do get it off- you have no mitigation. When you get it off- they have better armour, plus they might have defensives, or things like aoe damage reduction. Snipers have casts- but leap/pull/interrupt immunity, and a good CC immunity CD all make their casting much easier to get off when rightly positioned.

Of course you can get off good dps and even good burst combos- but that's not my point. My point is- pvp is all about relative, and I guarantee if you can do well as a sorc, you can do much better as a sniper, PT, mara, jugg or sin doing DPS, and without the stun bubble as an operative doing healing.

As a result- given a choice between equal skill/gear, nobody takes a sorc for DPS in RWZ because it's gimping your team.

orryko's Avatar


orryko
01.11.2013 , 02:40 PM | #357
Quote: Originally Posted by fungihoujo View Post
DF and TB can crit above 5k specifically because they are internal- they avoid mitigation. Which is where the problem is with pretty much everything else- we have no armour penetration as a class with the worst armour ourselves.

In other games- magic isn't mitigated period. This game though, we're pretty much dead last when it comes to penetration- at most we end up with one hard hitting ability (DF or TB) that penetrates.

On top of that- any burst combo you can get off as a sorc is going to be easier to get off as anything else- because PT, sins, mara, juggs are all using instants, have great gap closers, and sometimes even things like CC immunity. When they do get it off- you have no mitigation. When you get it off- they have better armour, plus they might have defensives, or things like aoe damage reduction. Snipers have casts- but leap/pull/interrupt immunity, and a good CC immunity CD all make their casting much easier to get off when rightly positioned.

Of course you can get off good dps and even good burst combos- but that's not my point. My point is- pvp is all about relative, and I guarantee if you can do well as a sorc, you can do much better as a sniper, PT, mara, jugg or sin doing DPS, and without the stun bubble as an operative doing healing.

As a result- given a choice between equal skill/gear, nobody takes a sorc for DPS in RWZ because it's gimping your team.
agreed. i could make a sniper or pt and perform much better. however, as i also mentioned previously...there are only a handful of top level dps per class per server. Even if I wanted to recruit 3 pyro pts who do 700-800k per rated match, they aren't available, at least on pot5. The few who can, are already in guilds and dedicated teams. Same thing for snipers. Out of all the amazing dps available, I *might* be able to find 1 pt and 1 sniper. I like my sorc a lot and I do well enough where I don't feel the need to reroll. Plus with all the whining, I'm sure Bioware will cave and buff us somehow.

AdmiralParmesan's Avatar


AdmiralParmesan
01.11.2013 , 07:30 PM | #358
Yeah I play my sorceror just because I enjoy it and there are few good players who bother with the class as dps anymore. Still it is pretty well understood that almost any other appropriate dps spec/class would be a better choice.
Depreva (Sith Sorcerer) - Prophecy of the Five-

Eldriq's Avatar


Eldriq
01.11.2013 , 07:42 PM | #359
Quote: Originally Posted by fungihoujo View Post
DF and TB can crit above 5k specifically because they are internal- they avoid mitigation. Which is where the problem is with pretty much everything else- we have no armour penetration as a class with the worst armour ourselves.

In other games- magic isn't mitigated period. This game though, we're pretty much dead last when it comes to penetration- at most we end up with one hard hitting ability (DF or TB) that penetrates.

On top of that- any burst combo you can get off as a sorc is going to be easier to get off as anything else- because PT, sins, mara, juggs are all using instants, have great gap closers, and sometimes even things like CC immunity. When they do get it off- you have no mitigation. When you get it off- they have better armour, plus they might have defensives, or things like aoe damage reduction. Snipers have casts- but leap/pull/interrupt immunity, and a good CC immunity CD all make their casting much easier to get off when rightly positioned.

Of course you can get off good dps and even good burst combos- but that's not my point. My point is- pvp is all about relative, and I guarantee if you can do well as a sorc, you can do much better as a sniper, PT, mara, jugg or sin doing DPS, and without the stun bubble as an operative doing healing.

As a result- given a choice between equal skill/gear, nobody takes a sorc for DPS in RWZ because it's gimping your team.

All good points the class is gimped compared to other main dps classes. If you play dps sorcerer you do it out of love not for competitive play. Yes if you are good you can help your team and get high scores on the charts but most know that the main dps classes are just so much better that you really are a second class citizen. You never see an A rated guild recruiting for sorcerer dps maybe they will take a healer.
El'drik - Sorcerer- War Hero - Harbinger Server Care Bear/White Knight
All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth. Friedrich Nietzsche

fungihoujo's Avatar


fungihoujo
01.11.2013 , 08:05 PM | #360
Quote: Originally Posted by Eldriq View Post
All good points the class is gimped compared to other main dps classes. If you play dps sorcerer you do it out of love not for competitive play. Yes if you are good you can help your team and get high scores on the charts but most know that the main dps classes are just so much better that you really are a second class citizen. You never see an A rated guild recruiting for sorcerer dps maybe they will take a healer.
Yeah- and for the most part I'm not asking for too much in terms of damage buffs, mostly for mobility, survivability and baseline buffs that should have been part of the class to begin with. Frankly- making CD internal, making wrath refresh it so we don't rely on the sad damage of LS when wrath procs while CD's on cooldown- adding some armour penetration (we do well in parses because other classes are debuffing boss armour- we don't have that reliably in pvp).

Furthermore- they've said they intend to nerf the stun bubble, which right now is our thing getting us into rateds and making us survive in normals- they'll have to give us something in return to both make us have something desirable for rated, and to make up for everything else we lack.

I know we can put out decent burst sometimes- it's still not as good as other classes- but that in itself doesn't bother me. What bothers me is that we're at least a little bit behind on everything else- or far behind in the case of survivability.

CC and an escape is not our survivability when it's considered that we are pretty much on par if not behind on CC without the stun bubble, and our one escape is so easy to counter.

Kiting is not our specialty when we have no baseline root and no perma snare in a game where almost everyone else has both of those.


I'm not talking about whether you can or can't do decently at the class- I'm talking about piece by piece comparisons, in which we come up short. At the moment I have someone of every class in low level pvp too- and I have topped dps/healing charts as low as level 11 on every single class- and at the highest by level 18 I'm doing so, so yes, I know you can do well as every class- even dps ops, dps mercs and dps sorcs.

But- pvp is relative, and relatively those weak 3 are not as good as the top 5- regardless of ability to put out burst- because of other things getting in the way.