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Time for a PvP Fix

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AdmiralParmesan's Avatar


AdmiralParmesan
01.07.2013 , 04:45 PM | #331
Obviously a lot of thought will have to go into where these skills are placed in the skill trees to prevant overpowered hybrids. I hope you all take the time to read my ideas
Depreva (Sith Sorcerer) - Prophecy of the Five-

veyl's Avatar


veyl
01.07.2013 , 04:57 PM | #332
Quote: Originally Posted by AdmiralParmesan View Post
Obviously a lot of thought will have to go into where these skills are placed in the skill trees to prevant overpowered hybrids. I hope you all take the time to read my ideas
I read them, but *** @ anything melee related. If any sorc is whacking something with their light saber it's either
A: They think they rolled an assassin but just have been completely wrong this whole time...
B: They're about to humiliate someone with a crushing thrash killing blow. (I do this in WZ's on Lowhealth people trying to kill me. It's hysterical.)

I agree with you that the sorc needs an execute and some type of defensive CD. I've always believed that it should be Shock costing half the force and doing triple the damage on something sub 30%, the CD of it is long enough to be on par with other classes executes. Or madness DoT's should be 100% crit on targets sub 30%.

As for Defensive CD, It should just be passive with bubble or a Detaunt like Rift has. If bubble is down, you take 30% less damage for 6 seconds. (that way there is still the potential gap before refreshing bubble to take harder hits)

Our AGGRO DROP should also provide 50% less damage from a specific target for 15 seconds. It's on a long enough CD not to be abused in both the PVE and PVP world.

AdmiralParmesan's Avatar


AdmiralParmesan
01.07.2013 , 05:01 PM | #333
Well we in pvp we end up in melee range a large amount of the time reguardless of how well we play. I don't see anything wrong with using melee attack if we don't have the option to get out of melee range. After all we have a light saber it seems kind of silly that our class has no use for it.
Depreva (Sith Sorcerer) - Prophecy of the Five-

Laforet's Avatar


Laforet
01.07.2013 , 05:14 PM | #334
Quote: Originally Posted by AdmiralParmesan View Post
Force lightning while moving is definitely OP, the other set bonus ideas aren't bad though. It is just plain sad how bad the 4 set force master set bonus is
Agreed, but lightnint tree should definevely cas LIGHT STRIKE/ disturbance on the move, scorch style MOFO.

And they should think about giving some love to heal tree cast while moving, maybe force bend doing dark heal (and dark heal only) cast while moving.
Believer - Seer - Fatman - RETIRED

Jkelectronet Poledancer new healstar inc.

AdmiralParmesan's Avatar


AdmiralParmesan
01.07.2013 , 05:37 PM | #335
Quote: Originally Posted by Laforet View Post
Agreed, but lightnint tree should definevely cas LIGHT STRIKE/ disturbance on the move, scorch style MOFO.

And they should think about giving some love to heal tree cast while moving, maybe force bend doing dark heal (and dark heal only) cast while moving.
Yeah I mentioned mobile lightning strike in my post. Moving dark heal cast through force bending proc would certainly be interesting.
Depreva (Sith Sorcerer) - Prophecy of the Five-

fungihoujo's Avatar


fungihoujo
01.07.2013 , 05:39 PM | #336
That would be nice- frankly we just need what everyone else has- either some CC breaks/defensives and a perma snare and root at baseline- or, the pure builds buffed up and every tree having something along those lines.

I definitely think root immune on force speed needs to be baseline- it is already way too easy to shut down. Make fadeout give stun immunity- our lack of defensive means we must have better mobility than we currently do- meaning, our mobility has to work when we use it and not be so easy to counter. Thing is- if you CC force speed, you nullify it's effects entirely- for anyone with a defensive, CCing them through it might indeed waste it to a degree- but that defensive is still working through the stun or root- force speed is not, and that makes all the difference in the world.

Our mez should be baseline instant, I think the KB should be a baseline 2 second root on top of it- then have bindings increase it to be a 360 KB like it used to be, as well as adding 1 second/point to the root duration.

Force slow must last its cooldown, and I think should be our baseline root- 2 second root, 12 second snare. Or, make madness tree add a root to it, as well as extra snare time/damage. (or reduce CD)

DoT protection- can't say this one enough, Creeping Terror needs dot protection

Laforet's Avatar


Laforet
01.07.2013 , 06:57 PM | #337
Quote: Originally Posted by fungihoujo View Post
That would be nice- frankly we just need what everyone else has- either some CC breaks/defensives and a perma snare and root at baseline- or, the pure builds buffed up and every tree having something along those lines.

I definitely think root immune on force speed needs to be baseline- it is already way too easy to shut down. Make fadeout give stun immunity- our lack of defensive means we must have better mobility than we currently do- meaning, our mobility has to work when we use it and not be so easy to counter. Thing is- if you CC force speed, you nullify it's effects entirely- for anyone with a defensive, CCing them through it might indeed waste it to a degree- but that defensive is still working through the stun or root- force speed is not, and that makes all the difference in the world.

Our mez should be baseline instant, I think the KB should be a baseline 2 second root on top of it- then have bindings increase it to be a 360 KB like it used to be, as well as adding 1 second/point to the root duration.

Force slow must last its cooldown, and I think should be our baseline root- 2 second root, 12 second snare. Or, make madness tree add a root to it, as well as extra snare time/damage. (or reduce CD)

DoT protection- can't say this one enough, Creeping Terror needs dot protection
If you look at a marauders baseline abilities you will notice that they have everything baseline, then they can spec in whatever they want.

If you look at our baseline abilities, you will notice that they arent much different from a shadows baseline abilities.

But wait, isnt shadow that melee class with acces to a tanky tree and skills like resilence and whatnot?

Yup. So all the baseline design philosofy is flawed, they give us almost the same abilities of a MELEE CLASS with TANKING TREE, and told us were suposed to survive with that.

Then they make it so our upper tree skills are either underwhelming or crap for PvP (slow AoE heal swag).

The result is most of the sorcs go hybrid and spread thin to improve our survivability and actually have a fighting chance.

Thats why sorc has been hybrid since day 1. Even when we werent sufficiently nerfed by scumbag devs everyone ran some kind of hybrid for PvP.

This is not just about numbers, like "sorc is weak because it hits low", well we DO hit low (lower than any other DPS and some tanks actually) but its a design stance that is flawed and rotten to the core.

Sorc is the class that:
- Has, hands down, the lowest survivability in the game, even if we have some half decent escape moves, they are all highly counterable, thats why any sorc is focus fire target number one on ANY CIRCUNSTANCE. If you have a healer and a dps sorc you can braindeadly train the sorc, it will take some time for him to blow his espace but after that hes dead meat, you dont even have to control the healer.

- Has, hands down, the weakest PvP burst in the game, while also having arguably very weak sustained pressure. For petes sake, CD + afflicition combo prolly ticks lower than a ptech plasma cell dot with lower uptime, im pretty sure plasma cell has like near 100% uptime.

- In the healing area, same as DPS, is the healer most vulnerable to braindead zerging. Can be dropped twice in the space of a 4 second stun, and, most important, when damaged has like minimal chances of recuperating. Sure we can move around a lot with force sprint but we cant heal while doing that. If you train a sawbones, he can quickly spam hots and cockpack on himself to recuperate, if you train a mando, he can pop shield and almost guarantee a big heal coming in, plus he has nature swiftness (makes **** insta cast). What the devs dont understand is that the sorc healer dont have how to recuperate from assaults so, no matter how good you are or how much you outplay your opponents youre not going to make it because you cant recuperate properly.

Healing sage motto: "Outplay everyone, die anyway".
Believer - Seer - Fatman - RETIRED

Jkelectronet Poledancer new healstar inc.

AdmiralParmesan's Avatar


AdmiralParmesan
01.07.2013 , 11:59 PM | #338
Quote: Originally Posted by Laforet View Post
If you look at a marauders baseline abilities you will notice that they have everything baseline, then they can spec in whatever they want.

If you look at our baseline abilities, you will notice that they arent much different from a shadows baseline abilities.

But wait, isnt shadow that melee class with acces to a tanky tree and skills like resilence and whatnot?

Yup. So all the baseline design philosofy is flawed, they give us almost the same abilities of a MELEE CLASS with TANKING TREE, and told us were suposed to survive with that.

Then they make it so our upper tree skills are either underwhelming or crap for PvP (slow AoE heal swag).

The result is most of the sorcs go hybrid and spread thin to improve our survivability and actually have a fighting chance.

Thats why sorc has been hybrid since day 1. Even when we werent sufficiently nerfed by scumbag devs everyone ran some kind of hybrid for PvP.

This is not just about numbers, like "sorc is weak because it hits low", well we DO hit low (lower than any other DPS and some tanks actually) but its a design stance that is flawed and rotten to the core.

Sorc is the class that:
- Has, hands down, the lowest survivability in the game, even if we have some half decent escape moves, they are all highly counterable, thats why any sorc is focus fire target number one on ANY CIRCUNSTANCE. If you have a healer and a dps sorc you can braindeadly train the sorc, it will take some time for him to blow his espace but after that hes dead meat, you dont even have to control the healer.

- Has, hands down, the weakest PvP burst in the game, while also having arguably very weak sustained pressure. For petes sake, CD + afflicition combo prolly ticks lower than a ptech plasma cell dot with lower uptime, im pretty sure plasma cell has like near 100% uptime.

- In the healing area, same as DPS, is the healer most vulnerable to braindead zerging. Can be dropped twice in the space of a 4 second stun, and, most important, when damaged has like minimal chances of recuperating. Sure we can move around a lot with force sprint but we cant heal while doing that. If you train a sawbones, he can quickly spam hots and cockpack on himself to recuperate, if you train a mando, he can pop shield and almost guarantee a big heal coming in, plus he has nature swiftness (makes **** insta cast). What the devs dont understand is that the sorc healer dont have how to recuperate from assaults so, no matter how good you are or how much you outplay your opponents youre not going to make it because you cant recuperate properly.

Healing sage motto: "Outplay everyone, die anyway".
While I agree with the problem of people just running train on sorc targets I don't entirely agree. Sorc DPS has some of the best AOE pressure damage in the game. As well healing sorcs also have good output.

The problem of out terrible baseline talents is completely true however. Assassins have all the same abilities we have and then some. The only thing particularly unique the sorcerer class has baseline is static barrier, which is just there to help mitigate our already poor defenses
Depreva (Sith Sorcerer) - Prophecy of the Five-

Laforet's Avatar


Laforet
01.08.2013 , 10:00 AM | #339
Quote: Originally Posted by AdmiralParmesan View Post
While I agree with the problem of people just running train on sorc targets I don't entirely agree. Sorc DPS has some of the best AOE pressure damage in the game. As well healing sorcs also have good output.

The problem of out terrible baseline talents is completely true however. Assassins have all the same abilities we have and then some. The only thing particularly unique the sorcerer class has baseline is static barrier, which is just there to help mitigate our already poor defenses
Some people must understand one basic thing before getting into a competitive PvP balance discussion.

Scoreboard numbers in PvP are an alienation of reality and more often than not they DO NOT represent PvP viability in any rate.

Any sorc can put out TREMENDOUS numbers by spamming affliction on the 8 players of the enemy team, they will look pretty damn good in scoreboard but they actually didnt helped their team to win at all because afflition adds up over time when spammed on multiple players but it doenst have any real impact on PvP.

Thus, just saying "sorc can put good numbers" means nothing if you dont put it into a PvP context.

Look at how a sage reacts to damage taken / death ratios especially when tunneled hardcore and compare it to a sawbones. Take a look at a healing sage TTK (it can be dropped like 2 times in a 4 second stun). Compare the uncounterability of spammable cockbang and godly hots from sawbones, nature swiftness of mandos with a sprint and a knockback from sages.

Everything we do is counterable, that might not account a lot for pugs, but i can guarantee it accounts a lot when you are playing a game that matters against good players. Since chain pull is so common in RWZs, especially because every rated team has AT LEAST 1 pyro and 1 shadow (thats 2 pulls, if not more) you are just getting chain pulled and killed faster than anything else.

And yeah, they can pull you 2 times and still hard stun you, or just chain pull you 3 times until resolve fills.

You really think numbers mean jack in PvP, all i can tell you is:

YO PVE, THAT WAY -------------------------->
Believer - Seer - Fatman - RETIRED

Jkelectronet Poledancer new healstar inc.

islander's Avatar


islander
01.08.2013 , 12:53 PM | #340
Quote: Originally Posted by Laforet View Post
Some people must understand one basic thing before getting into a competitive PvP balance discussion.

Scoreboard numbers in PvP are an alienation of reality and more often than not they DO NOT represent PvP viability in any rate.

Any sorc can put out TREMENDOUS numbers by spamming affliction on the 8 players of the enemy team, they will look pretty damn good in scoreboard but they actually didnt helped their team to win at all because afflition adds up over time when spammed on multiple players but it doenst have any real impact on PvP.

Thus, just saying "sorc can put good numbers" means nothing if you dont put it into a PvP context.
ding ding ding. winning warzones is about killing people efficiently, not just giving them all constant papercuts while their teammates return from 'the dead'.
Gėllies Erimosi, Imperial Deadeye
<Hex> Prophecy of the Five