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Time for a PvP Fix

First BioWare Post First BioWare Post

fungihoujo's Avatar


fungihoujo
01.02.2013 , 10:36 AM | #311
Quote: Originally Posted by Darkallex View Post
I've already made 2-3 long posts here.I would like to add a small one.
After 2 months of my return in the game started seeing things more clearly now.As much as Bioware buffs us....it won't mean anything if there won't be balances in other classes aswell.
I don't want to talk about warriors or snipers because in my opinion they are dps classes,they have to hit hard as they can't do anything else than dpsing,and in mmos there will always be imbalances between such classes.This has happened in the past in many games and devs won't avoid having more in the future.
BUT what bothers me more in swtor is the dmg some tanking classes can put out.It has happened in the past with juggs and assasins and it's happening again with powertecs/vanguards despite their sooooo much qqed nerf.
If the devs like having an AC that not only can defend objectives on its own even against 2 players but being able to kill aswell then gg devs.This is what breaks pvp.Keep it as it is and watch subs dropping more.I don't think that you expect to keep more ppl just from lvling or from your poor pve.
Thing is- PT pyro are much, much squishier than marauders and even snipers are- which in itself is absurd. Fine- give snipers/mara the best burst in the game, but we can't say 'because that's all they do' when they also have the best defensive ability in the game too. Sure, they can't taunt- but they tank far better than tank specs in dps- so that can't be used an excuse for making those classes worse.

I think if sorcs, ops and mercs had a few buffs- you wouldn't notice juggs/sins/PT imbalances because they are actually middle of the road and feel like they're where they should be (bit too much damage, but frankly other than the 3 garbage classes, everyone has insane TTK in this game, that's another problem)- snipers are also there because they, sure, have some good defensive, CC and burst damage- but they also have easily exploited weaknesses- such as being easiest to LoS and most reliant on sitting still.

Marauders just don't have a weakness- insane damage, great debuffs, great group utility buff, best roots in the game, great CC otherwise, mobility enhancing abilities, and several defensives which are some of the best in the game. It is way too much- and as a result, almost everyone is playing them. Even the marauders themselves in their numerous 'how to beat a marauder' guides always end up saying you need to have it be 2v1 in your favour to beat a marauder reliably.

Everyone else relies very heavily on other classes- mara need to rely on tank taunts and healer heals to stay alive- not on insane mobility, top end CC and rediculous defensives- until that happens they'll remain the god class in this game no matter what you do to the other classes.

Larry_Dallas's Avatar


Larry_Dallas
01.03.2013 , 01:21 AM | #312
Quote: Originally Posted by Darkallex View Post
I've already made 2-3 long posts here.I would like to add a small one.
After 2 months of my return in the game started seeing things more clearly now.As much as Bioware buffs us....it won't mean anything if there won't be balances in other classes aswell.
I don't want to talk about warriors or snipers because in my opinion they are dps classes,they have to hit hard as they can't do anything else than dpsing,and in mmos there will always be imbalances between such classes.This has happened in the past in many games and devs won't avoid having more in the future.
BUT what bothers me more in swtor is the dmg some tanking classes can put out.It has happened in the past with juggs and assasins and it's happening again with powertecs/vanguards despite their sooooo much qqed nerf.
If the devs like having an AC that not only can defend objectives on its own even against 2 players but being able to kill aswell then gg devs.This is what breaks pvp.Keep it as it is and watch subs dropping more.I don't think that you expect to keep more ppl just from lvling or from your poor pve.
PT tanks don't do much damage in comparison to Sin tanks in the 50 bracket. They probably do more than full jugg tanks, but not jugg hybrids either. And, considering they're heavily reliant on shielding attacks and have crap DCs...and most pvp specs use unshieldable skills, Van/PT tanks are likely the squishiest of any tank spec (in pvp at least).

I don't know, maybe I'm doing something wrong, but specced tank, all I've found my Vanguard good for is guarding nodes and pulling ball carriers into the fire. And Sins do both of those things--and do the first thing way better. It's not that it's a terrible class to play. But it's certainly the weakest of its type.

I mean, I did do about average damage for a DPS while specced TANK in the lowbies, but that didn't seem to scale very well once gear was a factor.

Larry_Dallas's Avatar


Larry_Dallas
01.03.2013 , 01:36 AM | #313
Quote: Originally Posted by fungihoujo View Post
I think if sorcs, ops and mercs had a few buffs- you wouldn't notice juggs/sins/PT imbalances because they are actually middle of the road and feel like they're where they should be (bit too much damage, but frankly other than the 3 garbage classes, everyone has insane TTK in this game, that's another problem)- snipers are also there because they, sure, have some good defensive, CC and burst damage- but they also have easily exploited weaknesses- such as being easiest to LoS and most reliant on sitting still.
There's wisdom in this.

Right now, after the Pyro nerfs and the addition of the sorc self-heal instant (don't laugh), all three sorc DPS specs can win a duel with a pyro (yes, even 31 point lightning) as long as force speed, stunbreak and one of electrocute or overload are all up. Didn't used to be the case. Used to be only madness could win and only if they were perfect and the Pyro got unlucky with crits and procs.

And Snipers have a rather obvious achilles heal that can be exploited.

One thing about DPS operatives though. Problem with them isn't that concealment's a bad spec....it's that it's freaking difficult to use well...but anyone who's good enough to do so is a damned nightmare to see in a warzone. The skill-cap on the class needs to be reduced more than the class needs a buff. And energy management doesn't make sense in any spec but heals, far as I'm concerned.

And a final note about marauders. Carnage, and only carnage, is somewhat balanced. They're a death sentence to sorcs (maybe not the bubblestunner), but, unless they're being hit with aoe, they don't take damage well even -with- the cooldowns. True glass cannon. And that resolve change blasted them bad. Whitebar never comes anymore.

Still, I don't see why it wouldn't be fair to remove, for instance, obfuscate from their toolbox. I'd say camo instead, but they kinda need that in raids.

AdmiralParmesan's Avatar


AdmiralParmesan
01.03.2013 , 03:16 AM | #314
Personally I would prefer our defensive options be improved rather than take away the abilities of others. The insane burst in this game would be fine assuming everyone had marauder quality cooldowns.
Depreva (Sith Sorcerer) - Prophecy of the Five-

Chemic_al's Avatar


Chemic_al
01.03.2013 , 05:51 AM | #315
Quote: Originally Posted by Larry_Dallas View Post
There's wisdom in this.

Right now, after the Pyro nerfs and the addition of the sorc self-heal instant (don't laugh), all three sorc DPS specs can win a duel with a pyro (yes, even 31 point lightning) as long as force speed, stunbreak and one of electrocute or overload are all up. Didn't used to be the case. Used to be only madness could win and only if they were perfect and the Pyro got unlucky with crits and procs.

.
Lol no. My Powertech, pyro spec hit 50 not long ago, and even in recruit gear, WH main/offhand and some high end PvE gear (like 800 expertise) I was melting sages with ease. The only ones surviving were full WH and only then by the skin of their teeth. If anything the range on PT was nerfed but the change in unlinking the cooldown of Incendiary Missile and Thermal Detonator, means they are actually even "burstier" now.

Chemic_al's Avatar


Chemic_al
01.03.2013 , 06:04 AM | #316
Quote: Originally Posted by AdmiralParmesan View Post
Personally I would prefer our defensive options be improved rather than take away the abilities of others. The insane burst in this game would be fine assuming everyone had marauder quality cooldowns.
Never going to happen, and marauders are just off the charts defensively in PvP environment. Nor does it seem they have any intention of changing the way things function in wzs, like undying rage giving 50% damage reduction (for instance) or making it so a marauder can't be healed whilst in this mode

Exothermix's Avatar


Exothermix
01.03.2013 , 08:25 AM | #317
Quote: Originally Posted by APeckenpaugh View Post
There's too much here to comment on, but I noticed a lot of people repeating "the bubble is getting nerfed. BW already said so." So I figured that could use some clarification.

We're currently undergoing a lot of class rebalance for a future major patch, so it's an understatement to say that things aren't locked down yet. However, the problem with Backlash (Lightning's incapacitate on Static Barrier) is mostly that it can be applied to any target, making an entire team of allies stun-bubbled. Since this is such great utility for the Lightning Sorcerer, we don't want to change the effect of Backlash, but we are considering making the Backlash effect only apply to the original caster - so you only get a Backlash when you put your Static Barrier on yourself.

That's just the current idea. We don't have any plans on making Static Barrier or Backlash worse than it currently is for the Sorcerer that uses it.

We're aware that even this change lowers the amount of group support Lightning offers, so that's something we have to figure out before we can pull the trigger on Backlash.

I wish I could tell you guys more, but there isn't enough locked down yet. Rest assured, it's not as simple as "too good - nerf. Next."
For people who said they could not see the EA/BW response.
Ex'xo- Looking for PvP guild
Sith inquisitor - Tomb of Freedon Nadd

Larry_Dallas's Avatar


Larry_Dallas
01.03.2013 , 12:31 PM | #318
Quote: Originally Posted by Chemic_al View Post
Lol no. My Powertech, pyro spec hit 50 not long ago, and even in recruit gear, WH main/offhand and some high end PvE gear (like 800 expertise) I was melting sages with ease. The only ones surviving were full WH and only then by the skin of their teeth. If anything the range on PT was nerfed but the change in unlinking the cooldown of Incendiary Missile and Thermal Detonator, means they are actually even "burstier" now.
Then those sages didn't understand how to use distance. DPS Sage v Pyro, 1 v 1 is now a matchup the former should never lose no matter what spec they are.

fungihoujo's Avatar


fungihoujo
01.03.2013 , 01:36 PM | #319
Quote: Originally Posted by Larry_Dallas View Post
There's wisdom in this.

Right now, after the Pyro nerfs and the addition of the sorc self-heal instant (don't laugh), all three sorc DPS specs can win a duel with a pyro (yes, even 31 point lightning) as long as force speed, stunbreak and one of electrocute or overload are all up. Didn't used to be the case. Used to be only madness could win and only if they were perfect and the Pyro got unlucky with crits and procs.

And Snipers have a rather obvious achilles heal that can be exploited.

One thing about DPS operatives though. Problem with them isn't that concealment's a bad spec....it's that it's freaking difficult to use well...but anyone who's good enough to do so is a damned nightmare to see in a warzone. The skill-cap on the class needs to be reduced more than the class needs a buff. And energy management doesn't make sense in any spec but heals, far as I'm concerned.

And a final note about marauders. Carnage, and only carnage, is somewhat balanced. They're a death sentence to sorcs (maybe not the bubblestunner), but, unless they're being hit with aoe, they don't take damage well even -with- the cooldowns. True glass cannon. And that resolve change blasted them bad. Whitebar never comes anymore.

Still, I don't see why it wouldn't be fair to remove, for instance, obfuscate from their toolbox. I'd say camo instead, but they kinda need that in raids.
Make camo simply a 100% threat drop that has no use in pvp- most other dps classes have a similar threat drop that has zero use in pvp- put camo stealth instead as a high tree talent in annihilation.

One of the biggest problems is that marauders get all the utility at baseline that almost everyone else has to spec into to get only part of it.

Whereas sorcs are the opposite.

Everyone else who has a mez- instant, and also aoe. Us? Cast time, single target- has to spec to be instant.

Zero baseline CC immunity of any kind- only things that can be specced into are some interrupt immunity in lightning (which is a terrible tree for pvp so thus is never used anyway), and root immunity for 2 seconds on force speed in corruption... and either you lose out on a decent amount of healing to get interrupt immunity- or you lose out on a lot of damage to get root break. Not to mention- other than mercs, you can't interrupt anyone else for 99% of their abilities anyway, so we also have the weakness of being insanely prone to being locked out of casting.

Mobility- other classes can move while using almost all their abilities, have speed bonuses that are in good trees, have gap closers on shorter CDs than force speed, that are harder/impossible to counter whereas force speed can be countered often by 2 or more abilities per class. Meaning- you cannot get away, and if you do it is effortless to catch back up for your pursuer.


Thing is- we've been playing at such a handicap for so long, that if we were ever balanced up to the state of PTs, sins, juggs and snipers we'd look rediculous... and if marauders were ever balanced down to the state of those classes they'd all be in for a rude awakening when suddenly 90% of them suck.

Darkallex's Avatar


Darkallex
01.03.2013 , 03:44 PM | #320
Some ppl are just staring at the tree and miss the whole wood as we say in my country.
I wasn't talking here about tank classes pulling out that dmg in tank specs BUT what I was trying to mention is that those classes have dps trees which,when chosen,can pull out more dmg than pure dps classes and still keep some of the basic reductions/avoidances/utilities of their main class.So something has to change on that...either being more vulnerable or do less dps.
Moradi - Sith Sorcerer - The Red Eclipse