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Time for a PvP Fix

First BioWare Post First BioWare Post

fungihoujo's Avatar


fungihoujo
12.18.2012 , 07:29 PM | #231
Quote: Originally Posted by AdmiralParmesan View Post
They may have been bads but Thorinlore is a good player. Personally I would just like the option to play a spec that isn't the hybrid. Didn't bioware nerf us in 1.2 saying that the 31 point trees aren't viable then they are doing something wrong? It appears they didn't even listen to what they said.
Problem is- they nerfed hybrids because they wanted us doing the 31 point builds- yet they didn't buff 31 point builds in the slightest, so even before bubble stun healers were all going lightning hybrid for the force regen- and dps were still tending to go hybrid too.

The 1.2 nerf was massive- destroyed healer force regen, destroyed healer's ability to get off heals quickly (aka- at all under fire), and destroyed the main DPS combo of hybrids.

With them promising a bubble stun nerf- which from the sounds of it will be killing our group utility entirely- we're losing the one thing that makes us stand out and important for RWZ.

I agree that the bubble stun shouldn't be our key ability- relying on one ability makes us pigeon holed in competitive RWZ teams. But- when that is the main thing getting us into RWZ- if they intend to take it away, they have to give us something to make our DPS and healing trees AS viable as the dps trees of mara, snipers, sins, PTs- and as viable as the quick casting healing operative.

Thing is- with the fast DI from force bending we'd have our healer viability back, even more so if force speed baseline ignored roots- and fadeout gave total CC immunity (for a class with zero defensives, light armour and depends entirely on mobility- this would be completely reasonable, as force speed is our one escape and should act as such). Make the top end consumption buff, instead of reducing the force decay on proc make it reduce the health cost on proc and take it off the GCD- bam, you aren't effecting pve healing with any of these changes (maybe even making it a bit tougher since hp isn't an issue in pve), and you make healing a pvp viable spec at the same time.

Lightning just needs a complete mobility rework- considering having half a tree in it is nearly mandatory for pvp, yet pretty much nobody goes all the way should tell you something. The damage is poor for pvp, it's way too immobile- there's a lot that could be done.
-LS is mobile cast and/or has a snare attached to it
-CL is elemental damage
-TB does double damage rather than auto crit, does more damage to targets under 30% health
-Polarity Shift gives pull/leap immunity too

Madness-
-DoT protection- pure and simple, I'd suggest putting it on creeping terror instead of having it root, when dispelled it stuns and does heavy damage- and making force slow have a 9 sec CD and have a 9 sec snare starting with a 2 sec root (baseline so we have a baseline root and baseline perma snare- like any kiting class should have).

fungihoujo's Avatar


fungihoujo
12.18.2012 , 07:34 PM | #232
Quote: Originally Posted by Edonidd View Post
My full madness Sorcerer is entering into early retirement. I have a sniper as well, who is now going to get the majority of my play time. Two ranged classes, two full specs. Both only play as DPS spec. Let's compare and contrast.

Sorc theoretically gives up 5% damage because I have the option to play other spec's even if I don't ever do so. I am honestly fine with that.

Sorc actually gives up XX% damage (I don't know actual numbers but it is definitely in the double digits) in sustained DPS, and XXX% damage in burst.

Sorc gives up higher armor rating, which is an exponential increase with new levels of gear. The disparity will continue to grow.

Sorc has to spec for CC that Snipers get for free, and even theoretically speccing just to get those CC options which Snipers get for free, Sorc's cannot go full 31 points into any tree, which is required to get one of these abilities. Insta cast mez (Flashbang vs Haunted Dreams), Root on knockback (Cover Pulse vs Electric bindings), 2 second root on 15 second CD with added damage (Legshot vs Creeping Terror). Snipers get all of those as free baseline abilities no matter which tree they spec into. Sorcs have to spec into a specific tree to get any of those, and can only get a max of 2/3.

Sorc's knockback discussed above is now a frontal cone, that is bugged and easy to strafe around, while Snipers still get full 360 degrees. Also Flashbang is an AoE that affects up to five targets, while Whirlwind only affects one. An ability in one of our trees that let's it affect up to 2 additional targets was apparently considered too gamebreaking to be allowed to work in PvP and is PvE only...?

Snipers have an execute ability, sorc's don't at all.

Sorc's can individually cast static barrier on a team mate, while snipers can pop ballistic shield and have it affect entire team. To make up for the longer CD of Ballistic shield, Snipers are also given a self only shield probe, and have an ability ballistic dampers low enough in a tree that any build can take it.

Snipers have a free ability that restores a large amount (50%) of their energy resource. With an ability low in one of their trees it also regenerates a noticable amount of health (6%). Sorcerers have one ability to regenerate their energy mechanic, and can only do so at both the cost of a large amount health points (15% or 2.5 times the amount Snipers are given) AND additionally also have a slower energy regeneration after using the ability; all for a miniscule amount of energy (8%).

When snipers stand still they go into cover and cannot be leaped at by melee classes, or interupted in their casting. Additionally they have an extra ability which makes them completely immune to all CC while in cover on a shorter timer than CC break. When Sorcerers stand still they have... nothing comparable at all.

Both classes have a stun on short range now. To a ranged class optimally operating at ~25-30 meters away from an enemy, there is zero functional difference between the 4 meter range of snipers stun and the 10 meter range of sorcerers stun, however there is a huge difference between the 45 second CD of snipers ability and the 60 seconds on a sorcerer's.

Comparing the two classes one has significantly more sustained DPS. Fine, Bioware announced that was intended, and although the difference is bigger than your stated goal, it is something you can get around to fixing eventually and is not game breaking. What is game breaking is also giving that class that does less sustained DPS: SIGNIFICANTLY less burst, SIGNIFICANTLY less survivability, SIGNIFICANTLY less CC, SIGNIFICANTLY less ways to counter CC, and SIGNIFICANTLY less group utility. That is game breaking.
This is pretty much it- snipers do ranged dps way better than sorcs, and PTs do mid ranged but mobile dps way better than sorcs... while also reaping plenty of other benefits, most of which are baseline.

Sorc has to go into hybrids to get even a semblance of the CC others get, while losing even more of the lower dps output they already have- we shouldn't be so far behind on the state of our class at baseline.

swifferdude's Avatar


swifferdude
12.18.2012 , 07:48 PM | #233
Quote: Originally Posted by fungihoujo View Post
This is pretty much it- snipers do ranged dps way better than sorcs
snipers are a dps only class, they dont have any heals, some defenses, they need the high dps to win the fights so they can make up for the heals that the sorcs are able to give out. you can stun someon as a sorc then heal yourself for ~4kish then keep fighting after the cc is done. snipers cant do that, they can mez, run, period. They need the dps to win those fights, without high dps, they are dead meat.... (this is all imo)
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Nissyen's Avatar


Nissyen
12.18.2012 , 08:14 PM | #234
Bump!

Great post and lots of wonderful ideas.

NoTomorrow's Avatar


NoTomorrow
12.19.2012 , 04:59 AM | #235
Quote: Originally Posted by Edonidd View Post
My full madness Sorcerer is entering into early retirement. I have a sniper as well, who is now going to get the majority of my play time. Two ranged classes, two full specs. Both only play as DPS spec. Let's compare and contrast.

Sorc theoretically gives up 5% damage because I have the option to play other spec's even if I don't ever do so. I am honestly fine with that.

Sorc actually gives up XX% damage (I don't know actual numbers but it is definitely in the double digits) in sustained DPS, and XXX% damage in burst.

Sorc gives up higher armor rating, which is an exponential increase with new levels of gear. The disparity will continue to grow.

Sorc has to spec for CC that Snipers get for free, and even theoretically speccing just to get those CC options which Snipers get for free, Sorc's cannot go full 31 points into any tree, which is required to get one of these abilities. Insta cast mez (Flashbang vs Haunted Dreams), Root on knockback (Cover Pulse vs Electric bindings), 2 second root on 15 second CD with added damage (Legshot vs Creeping Terror). Snipers get all of those as free baseline abilities no matter which tree they spec into. Sorcs have to spec into a specific tree to get any of those, and can only get a max of 2/3.

Sorc's knockback discussed above is now a frontal cone, that is bugged and easy to strafe around, while Snipers still get full 360 degrees. Also Flashbang is an AoE that affects up to five targets, while Whirlwind only affects one. An ability in one of our trees that let's it affect up to 2 additional targets was apparently considered too gamebreaking to be allowed to work in PvP and is PvE only...?

Snipers have an execute ability, sorc's don't at all.

Sorc's can individually cast static barrier on a team mate, while snipers can pop ballistic shield and have it affect entire team. To make up for the longer CD of Ballistic shield, Snipers are also given a self only shield probe, and have an ability ballistic dampers low enough in a tree that any build can take it.

Snipers have a free ability that restores a large amount (50%) of their energy resource. With an ability low in one of their trees it also regenerates a noticable amount of health (6%). Sorcerers have one ability to regenerate their energy mechanic, and can only do so at both the cost of a large amount health points (15% or 2.5 times the amount Snipers are given) AND additionally also have a slower energy regeneration after using the ability; all for a miniscule amount of energy (8%).

When snipers stand still they go into cover and cannot be leaped at by melee classes, or interupted in their casting. Additionally they have an extra ability which makes them completely immune to all CC while in cover on a shorter timer than CC break. When Sorcerers stand still they have... nothing comparable at all.

Both classes have a stun on short range now. To a ranged class optimally operating at ~25-30 meters away from an enemy, there is zero functional difference between the 4 meter range of snipers stun and the 10 meter range of sorcerers stun, however there is a huge difference between the 45 second CD of snipers ability and the 60 seconds on a sorcerer's.

Comparing the two classes one has significantly more sustained DPS. Fine, Bioware announced that was intended, and although the difference is bigger than your stated goal, it is something you can get around to fixing eventually and is not game breaking. What is game breaking is also giving that class that does less sustained DPS: SIGNIFICANTLY less burst, SIGNIFICANTLY less survivability, SIGNIFICANTLY less CC, SIGNIFICANTLY less ways to counter CC, and SIGNIFICANTLY less group utility. That is game breaking.
Quit your ************. Force speed, Extricate, Purge. Instant self heal. 99% more mobility with full madness. Easy counter for snipers,dot los,dot, los. Your overload has now a huge range and does damage: perfect to flush out stealthers.
Quote: Originally Posted by EricMusco View Post
Scatter Bombs are meant to be a fun bit of extra damage that occurs when you roll into or away from the action. That said, we’re okay with you trapping an unsuspecting enemy for a “wall bang” every now and then.

wbtusmc's Avatar


wbtusmc
12.19.2012 , 07:30 AM | #236
I find it hilarious how much time the OP put into his post with plausible ideas/improvements just to get a cut and paste reply from BW telling him how he's going to be nerfed. I suppose it's a good thing he got a reply at all...
Trained to Fight Born to Kill
Ready to Die But Never Will.
Goddric, 50 Sage / Marauder Diversion

fungihoujo's Avatar


fungihoujo
12.19.2012 , 08:00 AM | #237
Quote: Originally Posted by NoTomorrow View Post
Quit your ************. Force speed, Extricate, Purge. Instant self heal. 99% more mobility with full madness. Easy counter for snipers,dot los,dot, los. Your overload has now a huge range and does damage: perfect to flush out stealthers.
Translation- I've never played a sorc before.

99% more mobility? Please do explain which full madness ability boosts our mobility, period- much less 99% more. Please do tell- oh wait you can't because you've never even looked at the madness tree and you have only 1% of a clue about this class.

Go troll elsewhere if you have nothing useful to say- extricate isn't an escape, purge only clears force/mental debuffs outside of heal spec, force speed can be countered by 2-5 abilities per AC with ease, and the moment you step into view of a sniper you will be rooted and combo'd- and if it is 1v1 a sniper is more than capable of chasing and dotting you, a sniper has little reason to sit completely still if they're against a sorc- compare the dot damage and a sniper isn't outdone in their dot tree by our dot tree.

Using overload to try to sweep for stealthers- are you an idiot? You'd waste your KB, your only gap maker, in the hopes that there's a stealther nearby? Smart. Not to mention a- it doesn't have huge range at all, it's slightly more range than several melee class abilities that root (deadly throw) execute (vicious throw) or snare (PT flame burst)- it's about a 100 degree or so angle- now, big question for you since you think this is an upgrade.

100 degrees of 15m, or 360 degrees of 10m radius. Which covers more area? Also- it doesn't now do damage, it always did damage- way to know nothing and still run your mouth. Mara, juggs and sins are laughing their asses off right now at our new overload because all they have to do is snare and run in and out of you and they have a chances, with server lag, of nullifying any overload now just through dumb luck- no shocker another nerf to our class that directly benefits BW's favourite class.

So what- we have an instant self heal. Every 30 seconds know what that means, we can heal about 3k health, 4.5k on a crit. At 20k health- but with 20% mitigation, when a sorc takes 20k damage, a mara would take 17.5k, and a jugg would take 16k- or less if a tank. Meaning- every thirty seconds we can make up for our light armour penalty- considering you can be killed three times over in that time- that heal you seem to think is our saviour doesn't even come up to our armour penalty- then we have no defensives too- think how much damage CoP reduces, UR can soak 20k+ easily if used right- and a mara has 3 more defensives on top of those.

No- we're well behind, and right now the only thing keeping sorcs in the single RWZ slot we have is the stun bubble- once that's gone, we're pretty much on par with mercs.

fungihoujo's Avatar


fungihoujo
12.19.2012 , 08:02 AM | #238
Quote: Originally Posted by wbtusmc View Post
I find it hilarious how much time the OP put into his post with plausible ideas/improvements just to get a cut and paste reply from BW telling him how he's going to be nerfed. I suppose it's a good thing he got a reply at all...
Ya, good to know the only time we can be acknowledged is when BW is bending over for their marauder overlords and their newest whine about what is making their time as the undisputed best class in the game a little rough.

Edonidd's Avatar


Edonidd
12.19.2012 , 03:04 PM | #239
Quote: Originally Posted by NoTomorrow View Post
Quit your ************. Force speed, Extricate, Purge. Instant self heal. 99% more mobility with full madness. Easy counter for snipers,dot los,dot, los. Your overload has now a huge range and does damage: perfect to flush out stealthers.
Corrosive dart does just as much damage as affliction. So we will leave both of those baseline dots out of it. Both instant baseline, so both can los each other equally. I'm a madness sorc and an eng sniper. So my sorc can drop a creeping terror 2 second root and dot, and my sniper can drop a legshot 2 second root that does the same ballpark of damage, but all up front. So let's leave those out of it too.

The real start of a fight would see my sorc channel force lightning for 3 seconds, standing completely still and looking like a wonderful target. Then he would get his wrath proc, and start running for los while he dropped a deathfield, a crushing darkness, that affliction we talked about, and then the creeping terror we talked about. With decent crit luck that rotation should have netted me around 8-9k damage, with some dots still ticking away for the next 15+ seconds doing another 3k total. My sniper on the other hand would hit ambush, explosive probe, series of shots, takedown in that same amount of time, and would kill my sorc. If I wanted to get in a dot war with that sorc on my sniper int probe and corrosive dart are not far behind and that's from the not dot tree, lethality snipers will blow madness sorcerers out of the water when it comes to dots or mobility.

Madness sorcs rely completely on channeling force lightning, it regens our force, is our only ability not on CD, and is one of our highest dpct and dpe abilities. When we channel that we air there completely still exactly like a sniper channeling series of shots. Except we can be interupted, which is fun when we need a wrath proc to even start our rotation and now we can't cast our one ability with no cd for 4 seconds because every single class has an interupt ability, and since you can't interupt snipers or ravage, and no mercs PvP anymore, its not a problem to use that interupt on sorcs because they are one of the only classes that suffer from that. We also can be jumped to and then hit with lolsmash right away. When you routinely see 3-4 smash Juggs and Maras running around a wz, you know how fun and common getting jumped on by them is.

As for your specific abilities that you claim make snipers and sorcs even... Force speed is great as a travel power. I get to snow or grass at least a half second before everyone else and can start that 8 second capture sometimes a whole second before anyone can stop me. Unless their team has a carnage mara who can give their whole team that ability. But I can count on one hand the number of times I have been able to actually get away from people with it. Roots, stuns and mezzes are all hard counters to it. Ask any sorc how they feel about rubberbanding and you are likely to get cussed at. While most other classes don't even know it happens. It's great crossing that goalline with the huttball or getting out of the smashers pile up and into clean air. Then all of the sudden you snap back into the thick of things, and stuck in place too, or pop back over the goalline and your goal never counted. Extricate is useful in huttball (not in PUGs where nobody seems to understand it) but I can count on one hand, in fact on one finger how many times extricate has been useful at all anywhere else. And that one finger is used for datacrons, not PVP. Purge removes two force abilities from you. Useful when fighting another madness sorc (theres a fight people would pay not to see) but in very few other situations. Even then, with three dots, deathmark debuff, and forceslow available purged doesn't do much anyways. And self heal is awesome. Use a GCD to heal yourself for ~3k HP, maybe even 4k on a good crit. Sorcs have one ability that can do 4k damage in one GCD, snipers have one baseline and at least one per tree. Most classes have at least one or two. Literally against most classes our self heal makes the fight go one one GCD longer, it doesn't change anything about the fight though. It is less than useless if getting focused by 2+ people. How much damage mitigation is there in evasion? Doesn't that actually help you even more as more people focus you.

I'm not even comparing sorcs to assassins who have the utility to shine in many situations, and are literally the best in the game at certain situations. I'm not even thinking about comparing sorcs to maras, who everyone knows have the best defensive CDs in the game, have the best group utility in the game, and incidentally have the best burst AND sustained damage in the game. I'm just comparing sorcerers to snipers. We have the exact same role, ranged DPS. Have have almost all of the same tools, snipers just get better versions of all of them. Or get them at all.

TLDR version. When two classes do the exact same thing, and do it in nearly the exact same way; but one class is better at doing everything than the other, there is no point in having that other. That is game breaking, and right now there is zero point in playing a sorc as anything but heals or hybrid heals, and Bioware has already admitted plans to need the reason to play hybrid heals... Leaving only heals.

AdmiralParmesan's Avatar


AdmiralParmesan
12.19.2012 , 08:46 PM | #240
Quote: Originally Posted by Edonidd View Post
Corrosive dart does just as much damage as affliction. So we will leave both of those baseline dots out of it. Both instant baseline, so both can los each other equally. I'm a madness sorc and an eng sniper. So my sorc can drop a creeping terror 2 second root and dot, and my sniper can drop a legshot 2 second root that does the same ballpark of damage, but all up front. So let's leave those out of it too.

The real start of a fight would see my sorc channel force lightning for 3 seconds, standing completely still and looking like a wonderful target. Then he would get his wrath proc, and start running for los while he dropped a deathfield, a crushing darkness, that affliction we talked about, and then the creeping terror we talked about. With decent crit luck that rotation should have netted me around 8-9k damage, with some dots still ticking away for the next 15+ seconds doing another 3k total. My sniper on the other hand would hit ambush, explosive probe, series of shots, takedown in that same amount of time, and would kill my sorc. If I wanted to get in a dot war with that sorc on my sniper int probe and corrosive dart are not far behind and that's from the not dot tree, lethality snipers will blow madness sorcerers out of the water when it comes to dots or mobility.

Madness sorcs rely completely on channeling force lightning, it regens our force, is our only ability not on CD, and is one of our highest dpct and dpe abilities. When we channel that we air there completely still exactly like a sniper channeling series of shots. Except we can be interupted, which is fun when we need a wrath proc to even start our rotation and now we can't cast our one ability with no cd for 4 seconds because every single class has an interupt ability, and since you can't interupt snipers or ravage, and no mercs PvP anymore, its not a problem to use that interupt on sorcs because they are one of the only classes that suffer from that. We also can be jumped to and then hit with lolsmash right away. When you routinely see 3-4 smash Juggs and Maras running around a wz, you know how fun and common getting jumped on by them is.

As for your specific abilities that you claim make snipers and sorcs even... Force speed is great as a travel power. I get to snow or grass at least a half second before everyone else and can start that 8 second capture sometimes a whole second before anyone can stop me. Unless their team has a carnage mara who can give their whole team that ability. But I can count on one hand the number of times I have been able to actually get away from people with it. Roots, stuns and mezzes are all hard counters to it. Ask any sorc how they feel about rubberbanding and you are likely to get cussed at. While most other classes don't even know it happens. It's great crossing that goalline with the huttball or getting out of the smashers pile up and into clean air. Then all of the sudden you snap back into the thick of things, and stuck in place too, or pop back over the goalline and your goal never counted. Extricate is useful in huttball (not in PUGs where nobody seems to understand it) but I can count on one hand, in fact on one finger how many times extricate has been useful at all anywhere else. And that one finger is used for datacrons, not PVP. Purge removes two force abilities from you. Useful when fighting another madness sorc (theres a fight people would pay not to see) but in very few other situations. Even then, with three dots, deathmark debuff, and forceslow available purged doesn't do much anyways. And self heal is awesome. Use a GCD to heal yourself for ~3k HP, maybe even 4k on a good crit. Sorcs have one ability that can do 4k damage in one GCD, snipers have one baseline and at least one per tree. Most classes have at least one or two. Literally against most classes our self heal makes the fight go one one GCD longer, it doesn't change anything about the fight though. It is less than useless if getting focused by 2+ people. How much damage mitigation is there in evasion? Doesn't that actually help you even more as more people focus you.

I'm not even comparing sorcs to assassins who have the utility to shine in many situations, and are literally the best in the game at certain situations. I'm not even thinking about comparing sorcs to maras, who everyone knows have the best defensive CDs in the game, have the best group utility in the game, and incidentally have the best burst AND sustained damage in the game. I'm just comparing sorcerers to snipers. We have the exact same role, ranged DPS. Have have almost all of the same tools, snipers just get better versions of all of them. Or get them at all.

TLDR version. When two classes do the exact same thing, and do it in nearly the exact same way; but one class is better at doing everything than the other, there is no point in having that other. That is game breaking, and right now there is zero point in playing a sorc as anything but heals or hybrid heals, and Bioware has already admitted plans to need the reason to play hybrid heals... Leaving only heals.
Very nice post, I get tired of writing out well thought out comparisons myself and I'm very glad you were through with your comparison. Although its not on the exact same topic I have a post on nerfing the force charge interrupt in the pvp section on the forums. It mentions Sorcerer and Mercenary problems in pvp, even if you do not agree with me on the topic anyone's input there would be appreciated. There are very few representatives of our class DPS specs who post here so its hard to get melee only players to understand our problems and mechanics.
Depreva (Sith Sorcerer) - Prophecy of the Five-