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Time for a PvP Fix

First BioWare Post First BioWare Post

Devinia-Hex's Avatar


Devinia-Hex
12.10.2012 , 03:26 PM | #201
One of the other reasons we fail at scoring kills is due to lack of burst other classes have plenty of time to use defensive cooldowns. I'll see it all the time even with a good set up of a FL, Wrath, Death Field , insta crushing Darkness, Reckless, FL they will simply pop a cooldown and negate my damage. We have nothing to stop damage and damage with no burst which is why we fail.

We have to try and kite out there Cooldowns and grind out kills and you can't kite in warzones because it's likely to get you noticed by another class who see's a silly sorc trying to kite in a team pvp game. No other class has to kite to survive.
Dashara Bergen Colony Devinia Hex The Bastion

fungihoujo's Avatar


fungihoujo
12.10.2012 , 04:40 PM | #202
Quote: Originally Posted by SoonerJBD View Post
My wording wasn't perfect. I expect Maruaders to get a nerf. I do not necessarily expect sorcs/sages to get a buff, but I do think we need one. Smash is the most complained about mechanic in PvP by far. I don't know whether it will be enough of a nerf, but I do expect it will be tuned down some way or another.

If I were the one making the balance changes, I would nerf rage/focus, and I would buff sage/sorc damage by 5 percent. That is what I think is needed.
Though I believe we need more than just a 5% damage increase (not necessarily more damage than that- but quality of life improvements to mobility mainly, and a definite improvement on 31 point talents)- the problem is you are not the one making balance changes- BW is, and BW hasn't attempted or even shown any sign of interest in balancing anything in over eight months when they smashed their at the time three most popular classes into the ground.

Most of their changes have been one or two abilities- and often such wild changes like the bubble stun they seem like 'easy fix so we don't have to deal with it any longer'.

They've said nothing about changing sorc, op or merc dps in that time- and only recently, finally gave some idea that they might do something with mercs- but considering their post was talking about merc escape and how they thought mercs are doing badly because players aren't pillar humping well enough, not sure they even grasp the problem there.

8 months is a long time to wait and still have hope- right now our only post from the devs is them letting us know they intend to nerf the bubble- but at least they'll consider how to do so carefully.

When I left a few months after 1.2- I didn't expect to come back to the exact same situation I left, I'd be hoping for f2p they'd have tried to make their previous popular classes at least a bit inviting for former players to play again.

... instead I come back to nerf talks of our class again. Not exactly thrilling.

Enhancer's Avatar


Enhancer
12.10.2012 , 05:50 PM | #203
Quote: Originally Posted by ClockworkSoldier View Post
Let's get this straight once and for all. Sorcs are not going to get a damage increase!

I will tell you why.... It is simple sorc like other classes that cast can bypass GCD straight after a cast. With changing your rotation you can do allot of damage in a very short space of time however the issue is the set up time in order to do this is stupid and provides you no ability to kite. below I have listed the rotation I use that will take half to nearly all of some ones health bar.

I use a madness - lightning build as frankly the full trees are to week in dps output and frankly I'm not the type of player to fake numbers by spamming affliction on every one for a whole WZ!

Cast Crushing darkness, right as the cast ends hit the affliction skill (this will cast in one animation bypassing GCD)

Next cast lightning strike (this has the 30% proc chance) and use the same trick as above straight into Force lightning The damage from Lightning strike will hit at the same time as teh first tick of force lightning + any dots.

Right at the end of force lightning use shock.

This can change however, if you proc CL replace shock with CL and lightning infusion will make you do allot of damage very quickly, allowing you to repeat your next combo.

Repeat this final combo. Lightning strike + Force Lightning + Shock.

I've tested this and apart from the beastly set up time it takes to get this on someone i have dropped a PT with 1300 Ex to 20% finishing him off, with the repeat of the last combo.

Additional: if Bioware removes bypassing GCD and makes you cast each skill, the DPS Sorc will be no more.

Personally I think the bubble is fine it finaly allows teh ranged classes to play a more active role in ranked WZ's. opposed to the melee WTFPWN dps train.

What I think they should do is remove the ability to triger it early. This would stop a 3k a flame burst spam PT having an extra 3 second stun! But hey who am I, I'm just a sorc player lol!
I don't think you understand what's really being discussed here....

DPS wise, top end PVP (rated WZ's) are based on one thing, bursting folks down. It's the name of the game. So it doesn't matter if you stand and stupidly face tank some mara while spamming force lightning or are pro at kiting and tab around tagging everyone with Affliction, that sort of damage is essentially useless. Crushing Darkness, our biggest DoT, can tick some health away if you're spec'ed right, but again, essentially useless damage. Not to mention if the opposing team has a somewhat competent sorc/sage healer, they will easily purge it anyway. Death Field? Sure, it can hit hard if you are min/maxed and spec'ed for it. I hit under geared guys for 5500, with averages of 4500 to 4800. But still, nothing in comparison to what a mara, smash juggy or a PT bring to the party.

Oh, and the dreaded "utility" part. Sure, lvl 10 through 49 awesome. Even lvl 50 solo pug regular WZ's are fun. But if this "utility" were so detrimental to winning at the highest competitive level, sorcs would have been on the rated WZ requirement list from the start, not just since the stun bubble addition (which is clearly going to be "adjusted").

What people are asking for here a viable DPS tree/spec that allows for us to have a shot at being desirable in the highest competitive form of PVP if that's so what you desire. A single target burst option. We are not interested in bogus high padded damage and high kill numbers because the real hardcore guys know that is just fluff. I am a full min/max lolDPS madness spec sorc and all I do is PVP, period. It's why I play the game. It's just a shame that I cannot progress competitively with rated's on my sorc unless I want to completely alter my play style and spec heals. A DPS sorc has nothing to offer that others can't do better to fill that role. Plain and simple. And I don't just want to get asked to fill a spot because there aren't any maras, juggs or PT's available, a plan C so to say.

(Edit for...yes yes, I know, there are some DPS sorcs that might get a rated nod here and there, but for the most part that's not the case. And this is not some cry teet post either, just pointing out that at the highest levels, we are currently not a choice to have on the top rated teams unless you heal. And lastly, remember I said competitively)

ClockworkSoldier's Avatar


ClockworkSoldier
12.10.2012 , 07:13 PM | #204
Quote: Originally Posted by Enhancer View Post
I don't think you understand what's really being discussed here....

DPS wise, top end PVP (rated WZ's) are based on one thing, bursting folks down. It's the name of the game. So it doesn't matter if you stand and stupidly face tank some mara while spamming force lightning or are pro at kiting and tab around tagging everyone with Affliction, that sort of damage is essentially useless. Crushing Darkness, our biggest DoT, can tick some health away if you're spec'ed right, but again, essentially useless damage. Not to mention if the opposing team has a somewhat competent sorc/sage healer, they will easily purge it anyway. Death Field? Sure, it can hit hard if you are min/maxed and spec'ed for it. I hit under geared guys for 5500, with averages of 4500 to 4800. But still, nothing in comparison to what a mara, smash juggy or a PT bring to the party.

Oh, and the dreaded "utility" part. Sure, lvl 10 through 49 awesome. Even lvl 50 solo pug regular WZ's are fun. But if this "utility" were so detrimental to winning at the highest competitive level, sorcs would have been on the rated WZ requirement list from the start, not just since the stun bubble addition (which is clearly going to be "adjusted").

What people are asking for here a viable DPS tree/spec that allows for us to have a shot at being desirable in the highest competitive form of PVP if that's so what you desire. A single target burst option. We are not interested in bogus high padded damage and high kill numbers because the real hardcore guys know that is just fluff. I am a full min/max lolDPS madness spec sorc and all I do is PVP, period. It's why I play the game. It's just a shame that I cannot progress competitively with rated's on my sorc unless I want to completely alter my play style and spec heals. A DPS sorc has nothing to offer that others can't do better to fill that role. Plain and simple. And I don't just want to get asked to fill a spot because there aren't any maras, juggs or PT's available, a plan C so to say.

(Edit for...yes yes, I know, there are some DPS sorcs that might get a rated nod here and there, but for the most part that's not the case. And this is not some cry teet post either, just pointing out that at the highest levels, we are currently not a choice to have on the top rated teams unless you heal. And lastly, remember I said competitively)
I do understand more than you think. I'm one of those sorcs that does dps in rated and is up there in the top DPS.
using the trick I have quoted above. You now have to combo skills together to do the same damage as other DPS classes.

Leave sorc alone its fine... Any extra damage buff would make the above combo kill some one in about the same time as a stun, and that would be OP.

ClockworkSoldier's Avatar


ClockworkSoldier
12.10.2012 , 07:28 PM | #205
If my post seemed to argue this point I've very sorry, my aim was to point out how you can do damage as a sorc in PVP. Mainly it's about placing yourself where you can do damage, to negate the set up time needed to burst someone down.

Bioware have also stated that they wanted Sniper to be the top ranged DD, as it has no alternative spec (only damage) so the sorc will never do as much damage with the same gear level.

As melee DD's already do more than ranged you're going to see that the sorc won't be able to keep up with these classes as it was never designed to.
Instead it was meant to bring extra utility to the team, as this looks like it's remaining utility is about to be nerfed it really won't have much to offer in a group compared to other classes, this is why bioware are trying to think this change through.

Also I didn't mention the pull as we see so many PT's and sin's both with a 45 second counter, it's pretty worthless
.

SoonerJBD's Avatar


SoonerJBD
12.10.2012 , 09:34 PM | #206
Quote: Originally Posted by fungihoujo View Post
Though I believe we need more than just a 5% damage increase (not necessarily more damage than that- but quality of life improvements to mobility mainly, and a definite improvement on 31 point talents)- the problem is you are not the one making balance changes- BW is, and BW hasn't attempted or even shown any sign of interest in balancing anything in over eight months when they smashed their at the time three most popular classes into the ground.

Most of their changes have been one or two abilities- and often such wild changes like the bubble stun they seem like 'easy fix so we don't have to deal with it any longer'.

They've said nothing about changing sorc, op or merc dps in that time- and only recently, finally gave some idea that they might do something with mercs- but considering their post was talking about merc escape and how they thought mercs are doing badly because players aren't pillar humping well enough, not sure they even grasp the problem there.

8 months is a long time to wait and still have hope- right now our only post from the devs is them letting us know they intend to nerf the bubble- but at least they'll consider how to do so carefully.

When I left a few months after 1.2- I didn't expect to come back to the exact same situation I left, I'd be hoping for f2p they'd have tried to make their previous popular classes at least a bit inviting for former players to play again.

... instead I come back to nerf talks of our class again. Not exactly thrilling.
I think they have generally ignored PvP for a while. Virtually no balance changes. They put ranked off forever and when they finally released it, it didn't work very well. They are still in "preseason." Open world PvP was abandoned months ago as they totally screwed up Ilum. Now getting our fifth warzone after a year. The last new warzone was almost a clone of one of the existing ones with a different map. The gearing has been screwed up for a long time making most warzones uncompetitive. I'm hopeful the new warzone, which seems more original than Novarre Coast, along with the promised major balance fixes mentioned previously in this thread by a developer, are a signal that they are taking PvP more seriously. They have said they also intend to address open world PvP with something in January if I recall correctly.

fungihoujo's Avatar


fungihoujo
12.10.2012 , 11:54 PM | #207
Quote: Originally Posted by ClockworkSoldier View Post
I do understand more than you think. I'm one of those sorcs that does dps in rated and is up there in the top DPS.
using the trick I have quoted above. You now have to combo skills together to do the same damage as other DPS classes.

Leave sorc alone its fine... Any extra damage buff would make the above combo kill some one in about the same time as a stun, and that would be OP.
That combo doesn't actually exist though.

There's no such thing as GCD bypassing- crushing darkness has a 2 second cast time- the GCD for using it is over before the 2 second cast is because GCD is 1.5 seconds. Affliction still gets a GCD when it is used- but nevermind that- you're acting like this is a high, fast damage combo when affliction won't even tic for 3 seconds.

Furthermore- your combo doesn't do nearly the damage you claim it does- kill in a stun, 4 seconds?

CD first off is a 2 second cast since you're implying you use it without wrath. Affliction doesn't tick for 3 seconds.

So, this is how your combo would look.

1 second- nothing
2 second- CD hits, affliction is cast
3 second- CD tick
3.5 second- since there is no GCD bypass, you start casting lightning strike you say
4 second- CD tick
5 second- CD and affliction tick, lightning strike cast finishes

Let's say we were talking 5 seconds rather than the 4 second stun.

To kill someone in that duration- 20k damage.

You have a CD hit, 3 CD ticks, one affliction tick, one lightning strike hit.

Now- I'm not madness and I'm in mostly BM with some WH aug. I'll say what I get on the pvp training dummy- which from experience I hit harder than anyone I hit in actually pvp.

My CD hits at 830/1.5k and ticks for 200/350, my affliction ticks for 250/430. LS for 900/1600.

In that combo I would do, if the moons aligned and I got all crits- 1.5k+1050+430+1600. In that five second combo I would do 4.5k damage approximately. Now- I am in BM gear as I admitted- but unless WH gear gives a 400% damage bonus over BM- (and I'm well aware the talents I don't have from madness wouldn't make that much damage)- you would have to do that combo four times.

To kill the training dummy which not only do I hit harder than anyone in WZ- but it also has no defensives and doesn't fight back.

And that's if we were to pretend I were to get a crit on every single ability- which lets face it would not happen.


What I believe you are trying to say is after casting a spell with a cast time- you can put an instant behind it to get two abilities to hit at the same time. However- no two abilities will do so much damage together than there's a chance of it being significant burst.

I'd like to see what your damage numbers and seconds break down is for your amazing damage combos- because no damage combo I can see comes even moderately close to this.

If you can show your combo break down and the damage you do with each of them (hit/crit) then perhaps I'll reconsider.

Galvit's Avatar


Galvit
12.11.2012 , 04:54 AM | #208
Well... it's about time to adress Sage/Sorcerer PVP-wise:

Especially as a DD Sorcerer you just can not compete with the other DD-classes in rated BGs. They pump out a lot more DPS/total DMG, very often they last longer under pressure due to better defensive CDs and the (little) utility I bring on the battlefield is NOT making up for my squishyness and subpar DPS.

Also as a healer you are wanted in rBGs mostly for your stunbubble (Nerf inc soon!) which is ridiculous, since you loose your groupheal and pretty much gimp yourself as a healer for it.

Dear Community Manager. If you actually read this and have the possibility to forward this to the Devs please do it.

Possible Fixes:
Make Madness DOTs better. The 31pt talent should really put some pressure on the foe and generally the dots should scale better from AP. This could also be managed with a 2-3 point talent high up in the madness tree. Or make a talent, that the dmg from dots increases massively during its duration (so the last 2-3 ticks really hurt).
Goal of this spec: The enemy team should actually worry about a sorc/sage standing in the back and dotting up the whole team. It should make the healers worry "oh man i need to dispell QUICK or we are going to have serious problems". This means a healer should not be able to heal through the dots+direct dmg a sorc/sage delivers against 2 or max 3 ppl. Also there should be some more mobility and/or another Defensive Cooldown to make up for the lack of burst so you can really wear ppl down.

Give Lightning some real burst/Finishing possibility. Maybe a talent that you make +30% Dmg on Targets <30% Health. The Goal of this Spec: Glass Cannon. The Dmg here should really be boosted. Don't worry about the range: All of the smashers/Stealth Classes have more than enough possibilites to reach the Lightning Sorc very fast AND kill him very fast. Just don't give Lightning extra defensive CDs. Lightning should be on par with snipers in terms of bursting ability. But while snipers can defend themselves better, the lightning sorc brings the utility it currently has and nothing needs to be changed.

For the Healspec i think there's not too much to do: the reason why other Healers are ahead of Sorc/Sage Healers atm is mobility while still being able to heal and survivability under pressure. Possible fix: Get rid of the 1.5sec Heal which no one ever uses and replace it with an INSTANT spammable medium heal with medium Forcecost. Of course innervate and the large heal should be the best in amount of Heal/Force cost ratio. You should always want to cast those if you can. But if you need to run away from that lolismashudiejugger this instant heal should give you 10 seconds to keep yourself or your team alive while moving.

Oh and also: Please don't overanalyze the raw data you get from non-rated BGs. The total numbers there don't seem too bad for sorcs/sages. Just take a look at the class ratio in rated BGs and compare that to the total class ratio. You WILL see quite a gap there.

Please note: I am not telling "nerf X and Y". I am just proposing my own thoughts about how you could make sorcs/sages a desired class in rBGs. But at the moment I do not want to fill a spot in my guilds rBG Team the second a full equipped Sabo Heal or a Smasher/Sniper comes online. And this can't be the point of any balance you want in your game.

Maybe you generally need to separate PVE class balance from PVP class balance. This could give you the chance to really sort some things out...

Please excuse for bad english. It isn't my mother language and i haven't used it in quite a while. But i hope you can get my points.

fungihoujo's Avatar


fungihoujo
12.11.2012 , 05:21 AM | #209
Overall- even the people defending sorcs being where they are now being fine to any degree (correctly or not) are pretty much exclusively talking about hybrids- for both healing and dps.

That alone should be a clue in to BW that the top two or three tiers of talents in all three trees need to be looked at.

One or two quality of life changes (force speed being root immune at baseline, force slow having a root attached), a few changes to make us more like we were pre-nerf (CL wrath would be great- though not fix hybrid common-ness, the instant DI should never have been removed considering it was removed to fix a bug they couldn't figure out how to actually fix).

Then, some changes to top tiers- make consumption actually good enough for healers to use for force regen since even before the stun bubble healers went into lightning for better force management, put something useful in the place of a piddly affliction snare and accuracy.

Make LS hit harder and perhaps every cast increases the damage of your next CL by 10%- stacking up to 5 times. Make TB do double damage with affliction up rather than auto crit.

Put purge protection on creeping terror.


If you're worried about pve- stick to CC, defensives, mobility and CC break buffs- since those wouldn't do anything to pve parses.... but there's no indication we're overperforming everyone else in pve, so a few damage changes to top tier talents isn't going to make us operation gods by any stretch.

dipstik's Avatar


dipstik
12.11.2012 , 02:02 PM | #210
so this person makes a thread about sorcs needing buffs in various areas, and bioware comes and and says its got plans for the nerf bat application