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Time for a PvP Fix

First BioWare Post First BioWare Post

Jack_Shadowshade's Avatar


Jack_Shadowshade
11.27.2012 , 07:46 PM | #11
Ok, first before I say anything, I want to say that i know sorcs are easily the weakest pvp class. I play a deception sin and my crits on sorcs are usually about 1-2k more than on any other class. I you look at the marauder forums, or the pt forums ect. you will see that most of the HUGE hits they mention pulling off are either on undergeared players or sorcs.
That said, I went to look at the 1.2 patch notes for the nerf mentioned, this is the entirety of the changes that affected sorcs:

Sith Inquisitor
General
Deflection's effects are now more noticeable.
Electrocute's visual effects now occur more quickly after activation.
Energize's effect now triggers a sound effect when it occurs.
Force Lightning now correctly plays its sound effects when the initial application of damage kills the target.
Force Slow visual effects now begin and end at the correct times.
The Sacrifice ability has been removed from the Sith Inquisitor class. A similar ability can now be unlocked through the Legacy System.
Shock sound effects have been polished.

Sorcerer
Due to changes in Sorcerer skill trees, Sorcerers have had their skill points refunded.
Corrected an issue with Static Barrier that prevented its visual effects from refreshing when its effects were reapplied.
Extrication now modifies threat by the correct amount.

Corruption
Force Bending no longer unintentionally allows its buff to be applied to more than one healing ability. Its effects have been slightly redesigned. It now increases the critical chance of Dark Heal by 60% and reduces the Force cost of Dark Infusion by 30%.
Conspiring Force now refreshes properly when Affliction is refreshed.
Dark Resilience now reduces the health spent by Consumption by 2% per point (up from 1% per point).
Fadeout now requires Efficacious Currents instead of Dark Resilience.
Force Surge no longer removes the health cost from Consumption.
Revivification's tooltip now correctly states that the ability affects a maximum of 8 targets. The ability's functionality hasn't changed.
A display issue that caused the first and second tick of Revivification to appear on top of each other has been corrected.

Lightning
Electric Induction now correctly affects Affliction.

Madness (Sorcerer)
Death Field no longer heals the caster if no targets are hit.
Disintegration now increases the critical chance of Force Lightning and Lightning Strike by 3% per point.
Calcify now increases the damage dealt by Shock, Force Lightning, and Affliction by 2% per point.
Wrath now affects Lightning Strike and Crushing Darkness only. Crushing Darkness's periodic damage now benefits from the 20% damage bonus when it is used to consume the Wrath buff.


Of all of this the only nerfs I saw were:

Wrath now affects Lightning Strike and Crushing Darkness only. Crushing Darkness's periodic damage now benefits from the 20% damage bonus when it is used to consume the Wrath buff.

The only negative effects i saw from this were that CL/Wrath proc baised hybrids were no longer possible, and any instant heals that might have occured were not possible. This, while irritating to people using the CL/Wrath build, is a nerf to them, not the whole class(Unless that was the only viable build for sorcs).

The Sacrifice ability has been removed from the Sith Inquisitor class. A similar ability can now be unlocked through the Legacy System.


Correct me if I am wrong but I dont think this was ever used in pvp anyway.

Force Bending no longer unintentionally allows its buff to be applied to more than one healing ability. Its effects have been slightly redesigned. It now increases the critical chance of Dark Heal by 60% and reduces the Force cost of Dark Infusion by 30%.

Bug fix?

Death Field no longer heals the caster if no targets are hit.]

LOL #Biofail
Bugfix

All in all these seem like small things, aside from the Wrath change. I think the real problem for sorcs in 1.2 started because of large buffs to all Marauder trees. if you will recall, most people back in 1.1 (and earlier) thought Maras were ****. these buffs, I believe, affected sorcs more than the nerfs they received.

These are the Marauder related patch notes:

Sith Warrior
General
Disruption no longer costs Rage to activate.
Force Charge now places a "root" visual effect on the affected target.
Intimidating Roar no longer costs Rage to activate.
Ravage can no longer be interrupted, and its damage has been increased by approximately 15%.
Vicious Throw can now be used on targets at or below 30% of maximum health (up from 20%).

Marauder
Due to changes to the Marauder skill trees, Marauders have had their skill points refunded.
Berserk (while in Ataru Form) now additionally reduces the Rage cost and global cooldown of Sweeping Slash.
Deadly Throw's "Trauma" effect can no longer be cleansed.
Force Camouflage now additionally reduces all damage taken by 50% while active.
Obfuscate no longer has a Rage cost and is no longer limited by the global cooldown.
Predation now affects all Operation Group members.

Carnage
Ataru Form damage effects (procs) now deal weapon-based damage instead of Force-based damage. The overall damage of these effects has been increased by approximately 10%.
Ataru Form now correctly triggers when fighting very large targets.
Erupting Fury has been replaced by Stagger, which increases Force Charge's immobilize effect.
Unbound now additionally increases the movement speed bonus granted by Predation by 15% per point.

Annihilation
Ferocity has been replaced by Enraged Charge, which increases the Rage generated by Force Charge.
Phantom no longer grants damage reduction while Force Camouflage is active. It now increases the duration of Force Camouflage by 1 second per point and increases the movement speed bonus of Force Camouflage by 10% per point.
Seeping Wound now applies a 50% movement speed reduction (up from 30%).
Short Fuse is now located in Tier 1 of the skill tree and has replaced Quick Recovery.

Rage (Marauder)
Decimate is now located in Tier 1 of the Rage skill tree. It increases the damage dealt by Smash and Sweeping Slash and reduces the cooldown of Smash.
Dominate is now a 3-point skill with the same overall effect. The effect now lasts 20 seconds (up from 15).
Force Alacrity has been replaced by Overpower, which allows Vicious Slash critical hits to have a chance to refund 2 points of Rage while the Marauder is in Shii-Cho Form.
Force Crush's cooldown has been reduced to 18 seconds. Its overall effect is unchanged.
Gravity now specifically affects Crippling Slash and Force Crush.
Obliterate now immobilizes the target for 1 second.
Ravager now increases the damage of Ravage instead of affecting Force Choke.
Relentless Fury has been replaced by Berserker. It requires 2 points in Shockwave and causes Berserk (while in Shii-Cho Form) to immediately grant 2 stacks of Shockwave per point.
Shockwave's buff effects now last 20 seconds (up from 15).
Unbreakable Rage has been removed from the game.
Pyre
<The Ebon Remnant>

FrumpytheClown's Avatar


FrumpytheClown
11.27.2012 , 09:47 PM | #12
/bump
Sorcs needs a DPS buff. I am a big fan of making our WW unbreakable allowing us to add DOTs to them. But to the poster showing the 1.2 patch notes, I respect your showing the evidence, which are facts/numbers to prove a point. However, there are always changes that go unmentioned. There are always fixes or nerfs they do no list.
Whatever it may be, Sorcs are in need of a SERIOUS DPS increase. Our damage can be easily out healed, specially since we are no very good at multi-targeting (to make up for a lack of single targeting).
"Peace is a lie, there is only Passion..." Ghandi was peaceful, now he is dead. Ghangis Khan was passionate and nearly conquered the known world.

fungihoujo's Avatar


fungihoujo
11.27.2012 , 10:32 PM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by AdmiralParmesan View Post
Bumping for effort. You have some nice points that you made in there fung, hopefully bioware will listen. I've been trying to increase awareness to fundamental sorc problems in pvp for a while now with little success but I hope this will grab more attention.

Maybe I should start posting on the marauder forums.....it seems like I would be more likely to get developer feedback if I post over there.
I'm pretty sure if you could convince them that buffing sorc abilities would be a buff for marauders- they'd roll out an emergency patch hotfixing sorcs by sunday.

Vladnar's Avatar


Vladnar
11.28.2012 , 12:47 AM | #14
Some excellent feedback being provided here for sorcs.

How about this....

Add another dot and combine it with crushing darkness and affliction and force slow all in one and make it instant........double the damage on chain lightning........triple the damage on Lightning Strike whilst halving its force cost.....finally allow sorcs to use their companion in pvp as an auto attack only?

Truth is even with all that we still wouldn't stand out as the top damage dealers BUT at least other players won't just keep walking past sorcs to get to the more important pvpers
The time of the Empire is now truly upon us

Vladnar's Avatar


Vladnar
11.28.2012 , 12:52 AM | #15
.......and Consumption should be changed split into 2 abilities "Drain Life" and "Drain Force" where we take from another and give it to ourselves and for extra wonderfulness id say we can take them from allies too
The time of the Empire is now truly upon us

Vladnar's Avatar


Vladnar
11.28.2012 , 01:06 AM | #16
................and WHY do Thrash and Saber Strike have to be completely useless?

They need to be tripled just to make 1k damage, hardly matching the marauders 3-7k so we should at least get that don't we all think.

Oh the last thing i want to see is Sorcs everywhere you look, just some perking up where we can take our rightful place at the head of the Empire.....at least alongside the Warriors, but obviously they work for us.
The time of the Empire is now truly upon us

fungihoujo's Avatar


fungihoujo
11.28.2012 , 01:29 AM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by Jack_Shadowshade View Post

Corruption
Force Bending no longer unintentionally allows its buff to be applied to more than one healing ability. Its effects have been slightly redesigned. It now increases the critical chance of Dark Heal by 60% and reduces the Force cost of Dark Infusion by 30%.
Conspiring Force now refreshes properly when Affliction is refreshed.
Dark Resilience now reduces the health spent by Consumption by 2% per point (up from 1% per point).
Fadeout now requires Efficacious Currents instead of Dark Resilience.
Force Surge no longer removes the health cost from Consumption.
Revivification's tooltip now correctly states that the ability affects a maximum of 8 targets. The ability's functionality hasn't changed.
A display issue that caused the first and second tick of Revivification to appear on top of each other has been corrected.

Lightning
Electric Induction now correctly affects Affliction.

Madness (Sorcerer)
Death Field no longer heals the caster if no targets are hit.
Disintegration now increases the critical chance of Force Lightning and Lightning Strike by 3% per point.
Calcify now increases the damage dealt by Shock, Force Lightning, and Affliction by 2% per point.
Wrath now affects Lightning Strike and Crushing Darkness only. Crushing Darkness's periodic damage now benefits from the 20% damage bonus when it is used to consume the Wrath buff.[/COLOR]

Of all of this the only nerfs I saw were:

Wrath now affects Lightning Strike and Crushing Darkness only. Crushing Darkness's periodic damage now benefits from the 20% damage bonus when it is used to consume the Wrath buff.

The only negative effects i saw from this were that CL/Wrath proc baised hybrids were no longer possible, and any instant heals that might have occured were not possible. This, while irritating to people using the CL/Wrath build, is a nerf to them, not the whole class(Unless that was the only viable build for sorcs).

The Sacrifice ability has been removed from the Sith Inquisitor class. A similar ability can now be unlocked through the Legacy System.


Correct me if I am wrong but I dont think this was ever used in pvp anyway.

Force Bending no longer unintentionally allows its buff to be applied to more than one healing ability. Its effects have been slightly redesigned. It now increases the critical chance of Dark Heal by 60% and reduces the Force cost of Dark Infusion by 30%.

Bug fix?

Death Field no longer heals the caster if no targets are hit.]

LOL #Biofail
Bugfix

All in all these seem like small things, aside from the Wrath change. I think the real problem for sorcs in 1.2 started because of large buffs to all Marauder trees. if you will recall, most people back in 1.1 (and earlier) thought Maras were ****. these buffs, I believe, affected sorcs more than the nerfs they received.

These are the Marauder related patch notes:

Sith Warrior
General
Disruption no longer costs Rage to activate.
Force Charge now places a "root" visual effect on the affected target.
Intimidating Roar no longer costs Rage to activate.
Ravage can no longer be interrupted, and its damage has been increased by approximately 15%.
Vicious Throw can now be used on targets at or below 30% of maximum health (up from 20%).

Marauder
Due to changes to the Marauder skill trees, Marauders have had their skill points refunded.
Berserk (while in Ataru Form) now additionally reduces the Rage cost and global cooldown of Sweeping Slash.
Deadly Throw's "Trauma" effect can no longer be cleansed.
Force Camouflage now additionally reduces all damage taken by 50% while active.
Obfuscate no longer has a Rage cost and is no longer limited by the global cooldown.
Predation now affects all Operation Group members.

Carnage
Ataru Form damage effects (procs) now deal weapon-based damage instead of Force-based damage. The overall damage of these effects has been increased by approximately 10%.
Ataru Form now correctly triggers when fighting very large targets.
Erupting Fury has been replaced by Stagger, which increases Force Charge's immobilize effect.
Unbound now additionally increases the movement speed bonus granted by Predation by 15% per point.

Annihilation
Ferocity has been replaced by Enraged Charge, which increases the Rage generated by Force Charge.
Phantom no longer grants damage reduction while Force Camouflage is active. It now increases the duration of Force Camouflage by 1 second per point and increases the movement speed bonus of Force Camouflage by 10% per point.
Seeping Wound now applies a 50% movement speed reduction (up from 30%).
Short Fuse is now located in Tier 1 of the skill tree and has replaced Quick Recovery.

Rage (Marauder)
Decimate is now located in Tier 1 of the Rage skill tree. It increases the damage dealt by Smash and Sweeping Slash and reduces the cooldown of Smash.
Dominate is now a 3-point skill with the same overall effect. The effect now lasts 20 seconds (up from 15).
Force Alacrity has been replaced by Overpower, which allows Vicious Slash critical hits to have a chance to refund 2 points of Rage while the Marauder is in Shii-Cho Form.
Force Crush's cooldown has been reduced to 18 seconds. Its overall effect is unchanged.
Gravity now specifically affects Crippling Slash and Force Crush.
Obliterate now immobilizes the target for 1 second.
Ravager now increases the damage of Ravage instead of affecting Force Choke.
Relentless Fury has been replaced by Berserker. It requires 2 points in Shockwave and causes Berserk (while in Shii-Cho Form) to immediately grant 2 stacks of Shockwave per point.
Shockwave's buff effects now last 20 seconds (up from 15).
Unbreakable Rage has been removed from the game.
There's one other change that is much harder to quantify that gets left out. BM gear was improved- including a bonus of about 500 expertise. WH gear was added, and so was recruit gear. Now, recruit gear did have a bit of an entry point. However- before that patch Champ gear was as good or in case better than BM- as well as very accessible. It was pretty trivial to get champ gear as well- not to mention considerably more fun.

That aside- expertise was also altered so that damage was higher than before, and, healing per expertise in turn was lowered- I was able to get in the same spec bigger crits as a champ pre-1.2 then I could after in BM augmented.

There's also the problem that stats scale poorly for a sorc- unfortunately without the typical stats taking programs- we can't actually see this through anything other than hearsay. But, before 1.2 my champ geared sorc's bubble protected against 3.5k damage, now, in part BM part WH augmented- I am a bit over 4k, even though I'm a more healing spec and should have more bonuses even just in my tree.

Damage for marauders though has scaled so much better... I've been trying a lightning spec, and my CL procs are hitting for 1.5k... in WH/BM mixed gear on a cluster of enemies- tops. It hit as low as 800 damage- this ability was critting for up to 4.5k before in Champ gear. I didn't even get a 2.5k damage medal. In fact- I have to get the 5k heal medal out of combat.

I could get the 5k heal and dps easily pre-1.2.

Point is- with how much TTK has lowered, and damage has raised- my damage and healing is inching up or in some cases just worse.


Anyway- that kind of stuff are things I've just noticed, sadly they can't really be proven as the numbers aren't so clear.

For what actually changed in the notes you pointed out- I'll explain why it was so problematic.

Force Bending- no more instant DI. This is MASSIVE for healing in pvp, in fact, this alone almost entirely killed sorc survivability in DPS and healing hybrids alike. Every 6 seconds you could cast resurgence, which in turn gave you an instant DI proc. DI is a 2.5 second cast- you cannot get it off in pvp with someone on you because it's so long and easy to interrupt- yet, it's the only viable heal because, frankly, DH sucks. Being able to, every 6 seconds, get an instant DI meant getting a 3-4.5k heal on demand back when 15k health was the norm. This was nerfed not because it was too powerful- but because there was a bug which let you double instant DI- they weren't able to fix it so they nerfed the whole thing.

It's hard to point out to someone who hasn't experienced both- but that nerf was devastating for sorc survivability. I'd trade dark heal altogether for this ability back.

That was only one heal nerf- consumption also could be free to use after innervate crits- meaning you didn't have to pay up to 2k health to get resource back. So, in the same patch- we are dealing ourselves big damage in heal spec to get resource back (to the point where it became a tactic to die because you got full resource- that's just sad, but true), and having our emergency heal while under fire removed (yes, we now have Unnatural- but, that's a long long CD, and can't save anyone else... plus an extra hotkey- when ultimately DI did it better, faster, and without having a bigger bar that we already have).


Point is- this was a huge pvp nerf to healing sorcs, and to hybrid sorcs (it should be noted that near all sorcs were hybrids, though not all had the healing instant DI- some had more in lightning for the CC). This wasn't a small adjustment- this was a massive nerf.


Next- damage. There were some minor damage nerfs to the two trees that were kinda made up... maybe. But- you can't just shrug off madness proc CL. That was the spec- why? Because it was the one way to produce burst as a sorc. It wasn't as much burst, I should note, as any other class- but it was aoe burst so in some circumstances it could be better.

Ultimately though- it meant you could use crushing, then chain lightning, and death field together could rack up some nice burst, and the CL madness proc was almost a staple of the class- it was odd to have a spec that didn't have it unless you went full healer.

The nerf pretty much halved our burst potential at those moments we needed them- that's again, a huge nerf that can't be taken lightly. When crushing is on CD, now we can only proc lightning strike- lightning strike is so low damage, you do more damage by continuing to spam force lightning.

There is no excuse in the world for a proc that was once vital for the class's damage to be so bad, you would do more damage by not using it. It's atrocious what they did to the class with that patch.


As for mara- they were already good- the thing is, fully geared ones already had noticed they got better with gear- problem was before 1.2 there weren't too many geared folks, so they seemed bad... that and they were a challenge to play well back then.

The patch just gave them so many goodies- reducing many rage costs, making it easier for them to get things off- ravage was already one of the top damaging abilities of all mara specs- making it no interrupt simply made it too strong, especially since it was the only ability one could interrupt on a mara (force choke you can but only on someone else). They can't have one interruptable ability- while we're stuck with a full library of them? Complete BS.

Frankly- the thing that often makes it hard to talk of mara balance is that they've long been a class of many good things rather than one or two really nice things- so for sorcs force lightning became a target since it was obvious, for mercs tracer missiles- nice things on their own, but when nerfed ended up showing just how weak the class is without- and for sorcs, how bad our pures are. Mara can tolerate any single nerf- and are buffed by small buffs to many things because they're so well rounded- that's what made them strong in 1.2.

ShupFace's Avatar


ShupFace
11.28.2012 , 03:24 AM | #18
Simply put Sorcs need a boost to damage or survivability (or both).

Damage:
Thundering Blast and Creeping Terror need boosts to make them worthy of the 31 point position.
Dots in general need to hit harder.
Lightning strike needs to do at least enough damage to make it worthy of a wrath proc.

Survivability:
Fix Corruption
Boost the bubble
Add some more effective control

Chemic_al's Avatar


Chemic_al
11.28.2012 , 06:37 AM | #19
We need damage, and lots of it, for our squishability we should be able to outdamage and outburst marauders. But Biofail hates sorcs so it will never, ever happen. Kiters? Don't make me laugh, everything is so biased towards melee, it's a joke.

It doesn't really matter what changes you do, it's clear that Bioware have no intention of giving sorcs a proper defensive cooldown or proper damage.

Just look at how hard death field crits for maybe 4kish, chain lightning might hit 5k with the forked lightning, but just look at the range of classes that can hit a full WH sorc for 5k+ with ease, juggernaut, marauder, powertech, operative, sniper, merc and of course our sin cousins never mind the loltardsmashers that get an AUTO-EFFIN-CRIT on the hardest hitting AOE and you know Biofail are off their rockers when they came up with this ****.

I rolled a pyro powertech and loving it. It's just hilarious watching people melt and the burst is great, all that lovely elemental damage. Heck I even get heavy armour too....

fungihoujo's Avatar


fungihoujo
11.28.2012 , 10:16 AM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by Chemic_al View Post
We need damage, and lots of it, for our squishability we should be able to outdamage and outburst marauders. But Biofail hates sorcs so it will never, ever happen. Kiters? Don't make me laugh, everything is so biased towards melee, it's a joke.

It doesn't really matter what changes you do, it's clear that Bioware have no intention of giving sorcs a proper defensive cooldown or proper damage.

Just look at how hard death field crits for maybe 4kish, chain lightning might hit 5k with the forked lightning, but just look at the range of classes that can hit a full WH sorc for 5k+ with ease, juggernaut, marauder, powertech, operative, sniper, merc and of course our sin cousins never mind the loltardsmashers that get an AUTO-EFFIN-CRIT on the hardest hitting AOE and you know Biofail are off their rockers when they came up with this ****.

I rolled a pyro powertech and loving it. It's just hilarious watching people melt and the burst is great, all that lovely elemental damage. Heck I even get heavy armour too....
Basically this- even if we could kite, which we can't because our snare lasts less than its CD and anything we want to kite can leap us on low CD- kiting isn't beneficial in this objective centric pvp that relies on killing fast. We also can't multi kite or distract for periods of time to be of use defending a node since we have nothing to handle CC or survive longer.

Our one supposed strength has no purpose, we lack ability in anything else- and the one thing going for us the stun bubble has been promised a nerf by BW already.

We know BW won't do anything about it unfortunately- they've done nothing in half a year, the loss of million+ subs didn't do a thing to spur them to action, they continue to nerf bad classes while buffing mara/juggs again with making smash ridiculous even as they're already FOTM top dog.

It would require a massive buff to this class to make it on even playing field with other classes, so many abilities need huge damage boosts and so many of our talent point changes (like root immunity in force speed, instant WW) should be baseline.