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Time for a PvP Fix

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Thurinlore's Avatar


Thurinlore
12.05.2012 , 06:46 AM | #111
Quote: Originally Posted by veyl View Post
-still- could 1v1 only a few classes and were -still- wrecked by anything melee. The numbers that they weighed in on then were vastly distorted.
http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instanc...x/24449796.jpg

It was quite OP back then, but that was when no one knew about interrupts, had expertise, or had the crazy HP pool they do now. Also, there were poppable relics and adrenals... it was possible to kill someone in 3-4 globals as a sorc back then, but those same circumstances don't exist now.

As for getting wrecked by melee 1v1... I still am not "wrecked" and I run hybrid dps... I remember being able to double dip into lightning barrage and gib them in a stun.

Quote: Originally Posted by fungihoujo View Post
If we got a 15% damage buff, we'd be within 4%... as is, by BW's own admittance on what they consider balanced- this class isn't damage balanced.
This is our LOWEST simcrafted dps spec vs. SNIPER's HIGHEST and it is still not 15% behind, is what I'm saying. You said that we were 15% behind, and that just isn't true.

But whatever, you guys can have your ridiculously OP changes if the devs are insane enough to grant them. If they do come, have fun getting nerfed again a little bit later.
Thurinlore
<Casual>

-IceHawk-'s Avatar


-IceHawk-
12.05.2012 , 08:55 AM | #112
Theory-crafting will demonstrate the theoretical maximal DPS of a build.
Actual Hard-Mode Parses will show you the reality of those builds in a real-world.

Lack of Scientific Knowledge is the Problem Here:

Theory-Crafting = Control
HM Parses = Experiment

If the control indicates we should be within 11% of the top DPS but the actual experiments fail to demonstrate that we must logically recognize the disconnect and attempt to explain it.

Either all Sorcerers are Bad (relatively speaking), the difficulty curve of execution is too steep, or the AC itself cannot perform as advertised.

But to claim there is no problem because you are focusing on control data is intellectually incoherent.

-IceHawk-'s Avatar


-IceHawk-
12.05.2012 , 09:04 AM | #113
Also, let me be clear.
This thread is not about your (whomever) personal and highly subjective experiences.

It is a discussion of the relative stature of the AC when compared against the full-community of SWTOR. An individual player's ability to outperform the mean in no way proves anything beyond the natural existence of an outlier.

Balance needs to be an issue of averages and in this case the Sorcerer clearly lags behind every other AC (with the unfortunate for them exception of Mercs).

Actual in-game play-time data from Hard Modes have described this same issue for literally months with no change.

Theoretical maximums and personal experiences are no substitution for the average experiences of in-game Sorcs across the Servers.

veyl's Avatar


veyl
12.05.2012 , 12:48 PM | #114
Quote: Originally Posted by Thurinlore View Post
http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instanc...x/24449796.jpg

It was quite OP back then, but that was when no one knew about interrupts, had expertise, or had the crazy HP pool they do now. Also, there were poppable relics and adrenals... it was possible to kill someone in 3-4 globals as a sorc back then, but those same circumstances don't exist now.

As for getting wrecked by melee 1v1... I still am not "wrecked" and I run hybrid dps... I remember being able to double dip into lightning barrage and gib them in a stun.
There's nothing false about it. The people that you could 4 shot gib was if the heavens aligned: you had an adrenal + damage boost + relic and the person you were fighting was one of those poor suckers sub 50 who didn't have the talents to mitigate any of the incoming damage. The damage numbers that they read were the hugely distorted ones because of chain lightning + death field + affliction rolling. Which, by the way, was a wopping 7k in 2 gcds on geared players x3.

1v1, sorcs were laughed at by most classes. (Don't forget that was also when an operative/smuggler could 3 shot you with damage/adrenal stacking and SORCS were their favorite targets.)

Regardless of that side rant...

Sorc players have been asking for fixes for months. Look at the Class Feedback thread ffs. They all say the same thing or something along the same lines from both a PVP perspective and a PVE one. Bioware not paying attention to that thread specifically, is a joke.

Thurinlore's Avatar


Thurinlore
12.05.2012 , 01:04 PM | #115
Quote: Originally Posted by veyl View Post
There's nothing false about it. The people that you could 4 shot gib was if the heavens aligned: you had an adrenal + damage boost + relic and the person you were fighting was one of those poor suckers sub 50 who didn't have the talents to mitigate any of the incoming damage. The damage numbers that they read were the hugely distorted ones because of chain lightning + death field + affliction rolling. Which, by the way, was a wopping 7k in 2 gcds on geared players x3.

1v1, sorcs were laughed at by most classes. (Don't forget that was also when an operative/smuggler could 3 shot you with damage/adrenal stacking and SORCS were their favorite targets.)

Regardless of that side rant...

Sorc players have been asking for fixes for months. Look at the Class Feedback thread ffs. They all say the same thing or something along the same lines from both a PVP perspective and a PVE one. Bioware not paying attention to that thread specifically, is a joke.
The pic was aimed at the 1v1 statement. Sorcs are probably one of the best 1v1 classes.
Thurinlore
<Casual>

johnnyreece's Avatar


johnnyreece
12.05.2012 , 01:42 PM | #116
Quote: Originally Posted by APeckenpaugh View Post
There's too much here to comment on, but I noticed a lot of people repeating "the bubble is getting nerfed. BW already said so." So I figured that could use some clarification.

We're currently undergoing a lot of class rebalance for a future major patch, so it's an understatement to say that things aren't locked down yet. However, the problem with Backlash (Lightning's incapacitate on Static Barrier) is mostly that it can be applied to any target, making an entire team of allies stun-bubbled. Since this is such great utility for the Lightning Sorcerer, we don't want to change the effect of Backlash, but we are considering making the Backlash effect only apply to the original caster - so you only get a Backlash when you put your Static Barrier on yourself.

That's just the current idea. We don't have any plans on making Static Barrier or Backlash worse than it currently is for the Sorcerer that uses it.

We're aware that even this change lowers the amount of group support Lightning offers, so that's something we have to figure out before we can pull the trigger on Backlash.

I wish I could tell you guys more, but there isn't enough locked down yet. Rest assured, it's not as simple as "too good - nerf. Next."
Just quoting this because I'm sure a lot of folks missed it. For some reason, it's just now showing up today. Carry on.
Neldiahr, Sith Sorcerer Gibsenne, Imperial Operative
Neldienne, Powertech Smash'Kitteh, Meowauder

Devinia-Hex's Avatar


Devinia-Hex
12.05.2012 , 02:31 PM | #117
I didn't read all the post but I did read the op's post and here are some of my thoughts for improvements.

Madness
Death Field: (I like the idea of adding a snare to this and 5 targets) Also a base damage increase here so it's a little underpowered from what it used to be and that should be the classes burst move being that it's on a 12 second cooldown.
Small increase in shock damage
Small increase in Force Lightning (this would be op if you could move and use this ability)
Whirlwind: lower the resolve it affects right now it gives nearlly full resolve which makes other cc useless if this ability is broken.
Creeping Terror needs to have it's damage doubled and have a snare effect at the end of the 2 second root this would remove the need for a root on force slow and remove another ability to use as Force Slow would not be needed by Madness Sorcs with the 31 point talent.
Small increases in base damage for Affliction and Crushing Darkness

Corruption
Healing Give a heal that heals the caster as well as the person being healed or make it a talent that upon healing 20% 35% 45% chance to be healed for the amount healed on a target can not happen more then once every 10 seconds.
Make Sprint immune to all CC not just movement imparing effects if you take Fadeout 2/2
I agree DI needs a buff on force reduction and activation time and 1.5 if you take the damage is to high to make it such a long casting time Other then that the tree is fine.

Lightning
This tree needs a lot help, at this time Tundering Blast hits a sliver harder then Death Field and only hits 1 target. I would like to see Reckless make this an instant cast as well as any cast that is 3 seconds or less.
I would also like to see casting Lightning Strike to cause a proc that allows instant chain lighning or thundering blast. Thundering blast should also hit 5 targets at a reduced damage but the target should be hit for full.

These changes would make them more mobile as they could sit on an instant and if they were flushed out by melee could use a proc plus instant recklessness to do spike damage on the run but only every 2 minutes.
Right now this tree is the weakest of all three.
Dashara Bergen Colony Devinia Hex The Bastion

SoonerJBD's Avatar


SoonerJBD
12.05.2012 , 02:38 PM | #118
Some people will just insist on whining unless their spec is the ridiculously OP flavor of the month. There are still marauders complaining on the PvP forum that derp-smash is under powered.

We could use a buff, and based on what I've seen in warzones, anything more than 5 percent would just be too much. If you are falling that far behind, you just aren't very good.

PvE is a different animal. The parses there show a larger disparity. A couple of specs need a slight nerf, and operatives/smugglers and sorcs/sages need a buff.

Larry_Dallas's Avatar


Larry_Dallas
12.05.2012 , 02:46 PM | #119
Quote: Originally Posted by APeckenpaugh View Post
There's too much here to comment on, but I noticed a lot of people repeating "the bubble is getting nerfed. BW already said so." So I figured that could use some clarification.

We're currently undergoing a lot of class rebalance for a future major patch, so it's an understatement to say that things aren't locked down yet. However, the problem with Backlash (Lightning's incapacitate on Static Barrier) is mostly that it can be applied to any target, making an entire team of allies stun-bubbled. Since this is such great utility for the Lightning Sorcerer, we don't want to change the effect of Backlash, but we are considering making the Backlash effect only apply to the original caster - so you only get a Backlash when you put your Static Barrier on yourself.

That's just the current idea. We don't have any plans on making Static Barrier or Backlash worse than it currently is for the Sorcerer that uses it.

We're aware that even this change lowers the amount of group support Lightning offers, so that's something we have to figure out before we can pull the trigger on Backlash.

I wish I could tell you guys more, but there isn't enough locked down yet. Rest assured, it's not as simple as "too good - nerf. Next."
Why was this invisible until now?

Anyways, well-reasoned response about backlash and yeah, anyone with a brain knew backlash=only on sorc was something that probably needed to be done.

And yes, sometimes people forget that altering classes slightly can change the dynamic of a warzone greatly.

But because of that, one thing I'm not quite sure is wise is to do all the megachanges en masse. They're going to interact with each other in unforseeable ways. And the more that's changed, the more unpredictable those interactions are.

fungihoujo's Avatar


fungihoujo
12.05.2012 , 03:01 PM | #120
Quote: Originally Posted by NoTomorrow View Post
The original poster went with some extreme suggestions that will probably make sorc players feel more powerful but will ruin many sorc match-ups in the game.

Take Sniper vs Madness Sorc for example. Do you honestly believe that a madness sorc should have root cleansing for free with force speed? You are basically asking for roots to be removed completely out of any class matchup vs sorcs. That's huge dude.. That's way too powerful.

Next, you are asking for root immynity, while you yourself want to be a root machine. I guess you are one of those sorcs that consider Creeping Terror a bad top tier skill. I judge skills by the way how they synergize with other skills from that spec. And to me CT is a wonderful and very good instacast. If you are venture into hybrid theritory, then suddenly find lack of firepower, it's your fail, not other one's.

I'm really not in the mood to dissect your every suggestion, by judging by these two alone, your overall direction with sorc is pretty damn clear. You are asking for too much, while completely ignoring the need for sorc to have vulnerabilities in order for it to be a balanced class.

Here is how i would go if I had to improve sorc:
- Change the recklessness CD to 1 min
- All lightning abilities (force lightning, lightning strike and so on) damage type is switched to elemental instead of energy when recklessness is active. This will allow for considerably less mitigation from tanks and other heavy armors (that have DR against kinetic and energy).

As i don't think a sorc should loose to a tank that easily because his lightning damage is mitigated.

I would start from something subtle like this. Give sorcs an ability to control their damage type. (assasinss don't deserve this)
Getting two elemental crits per minute isn't going to make much of a difference at all- and as I said, I was making the suggestions in the hopes that two or three might happen- I knew full well they weren't all going to happen.

As for force speed- actually that would turn a sorc from a pin cushion the moment a sniper sees them into having a chance to evade the sniper- I think it's better to have match ups not be decided the instant they start- but that's just me.

Right now- force speed at baseline ignores snares. Root is considered a 100% snare, which is why roots aren't counted in resolve despite how godly they are. If roots are going to be considered snares- they need to behave like snares, meaning force speed should ignore it. OR, root needs to be considered roots, and be effected by resolve like all other forms of hard CC. Not being able to move is a death sentence as a sorc- and it's absurd that you can watch your entire resolve bar go from full to zero while standing still being pummeled by a carnage mara who can chain 9 seconds of roots together- and have another 3 second root ready 3 seconds after that's done.

You say creeping terror is good? Even people who go madness only go partial madness in pvp- I have never seen a top RWZ team show off their composition and a full madness sorc is part of it- yet a carnage mara is part of almost every single team.

As for synergy- really? Let me point out how the synergy of this class is.

Madness- you have wrath procs that can be used on crushing darkness (great spell, perfect as is, wouldn't change it) that proc off force lightning (again, great spell, could do better with mobility considering dots classes shouldn't be chanelling- but damagewise this ability is made well) and also proc free lightning strikes... which do so little damage you are better off continuing to use FL .

Instant WW- buffing a mez in a spec that relies on you using dots. Nevermind that all other classes with mezzes are INSTANT and AOE- we get a single target mez that normally has a cast.


Lightning- you're spamming LS to begin with- which does terrible damage for a 2 second cast, it does damage on par with auto attacks while being immobile. Look higher and we have TB- which nobody actually uses because the damage is so subpar, but if we did it is able to auto crit- much like smash. See, smash hits hard enough though that you can afford to go all power and ignore crit rating- TB doesn't. Furthermore- lightning relies on crits from top to bottom- so you have a tree that expects you to have a good crit rating giving you an auto crit ability? That's good synergy to you?

Corruption- consumption can be buffed up to be free from force degeneration- however, as it is the tree's staple force regeneration ability, that almost entirely nullifies the point of it- there's a reason even before stun bubble healers all went part lightning for their force management. It still always takes health, which is something you can't spare in pvp- and it's not even off the GCD. Add to that we have a top tier healing talent that increases accuracy- a stat the class doesn't use period.

That's synergy to you? This class has the worst talent synergy in the game- why do you think nobody uses the pure builds?


Force speed without roots would at least do something to help with being chain rooted. Right now this class has nothing for CC immunity at baseline- zilch. We can ignore snares for 2 seconds with force speed, but otherwise we're the plaything of classes that have multiple CC- and there's alot of it out there.