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PVP: Vertical Progression should go the way of the Dodo

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion > Suggestion Box
PVP: Vertical Progression should go the way of the Dodo

Kynesis's Avatar


Kynesis
11.27.2012 , 11:21 PM | #21
Another significant downside with gear-grinds and gear-dependance is lugging around a full set plus situationals & consumables for each role each of your characters participates in, in each game - PvP and PvE - and I say it that way because as discussed elsewhere, vertical progression (and Expertise) creates a huge divide, effectively making PvP and PvE separate games.

These are all issues I'm confident BW are well aware of though and they, along with other game developers have probably discussed them to death and back... but we still don't have a good solution so it's worth continuing on.

Rassuro's Avatar


Rassuro
11.28.2012 , 01:07 AM | #22
Regarding "players need to see a +5 to their stats to keep playing":
No they don't, and there are many games which have proved this. The only people who think that a +5 is necessary are people who want every game to be like WOW.

Let's take an example from a game which is not like WOW: Call of Duty.
Ideally in COD, when you unlock a new gun of the same type as another gun, it should not simply give the player a +5 upgrade, it should be a sidegrade, or to make it as simple as possible: If the bullets do more damage, then they should also shoot slower than the other gun. TTK will still be the same, and it's up to the player to choose what's important to them. Ideally this is also true with everything else in the game.

This is why Call of Duty is, for the most part, horizontal progression. Watch Taugrim's video on it if you are not familiar the concept.

Then once the player in COD gets to max level, something very interesting happens: The player simply chooses to start over. Not reroll a second character, not "to see a different story", just simply turn the one character they had, back to essentially the way it was when they began. The main difference is that the player gets a different emblem based on how many times he has done this.

So now we have a system where not only is progression not about giving the player a +5, but the player wants goes through the exact same progression several times.

But won't not getting +5 remove the RPG aspect? RPG is not only about getting a +5, it's about customizing your character and how the character plays. Making everything based around +5 is taking the easy way out.
Have you ever played COD? Some part are IMO pretty horrible so I wouldn't recommend sticking around for too long, but when comparing COD to end game MMORPG grind, in COD you actually have significantly more options on how you can to customize how your character plays, and you can completely change how you play in only a few button presses, while still keep working towards reaching your goals.

Should there be progression in games? Yes, the vast majority of players definitely want it.
Is +5 required? One of the top complaints you see every year with COD from dedicated players is that gun A appears to be an overall slightly better option than gun B, and that this is unacceptable. So no, +5 is not required, in fact RPG is pretty much the only genre where +5 is even accepted by a part of the player base.
Some games have tried to replace the +5 stat grind by giving the player the option to access various different shinies. This has never worked, the player need some clear goals and a clear path with several small goals which the player gets to on his path to the larger overall goals.

Would the COD model work exactly the same in an MMORPG? No, I do not think so, there are a lot of differences between the two genres. However something similar can definitely work, and if nothing else COD is proof that a game can have a progression without giving +5 to your gear, and still have extremely high player retention (COD has more players than WOW, and basically has one expansion per year with some small updates in between).

In before "Derp, COD players are dumb anyway".
Toor, 50 Operative healer | Odaen, 50 Assassin tank | Tiyr, 50 Vanguard tank | Zerofour, 50 Mercenary DPS | The Red Eclipse

kirorx's Avatar


kirorx
11.28.2012 , 07:33 AM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by Rassuro View Post
Regarding "players need to see a +5 to their stats to keep playing":
No they don't, and there are many games which have proved this. The only people who think that a +5 is necessary are people who want every game to be like WOW.

Let's take an example from a game which is not like WOW: Call of Duty.
Ideally in COD, when you unlock a new gun of the same type as another gun, it should not simply give the player a +5 upgrade, it should be a sidegrade, or to make it as simple as possible: If the bullets do more damage, then they should also shoot slower than the other gun. TTK will still be the same, and it's up to the player to choose what's important to them. Ideally this is also true with everything else in the game.

This is why Call of Duty is, for the most part, horizontal progression. Watch Taugrim's video on it if you are not familiar the concept.

Then once the player in COD gets to max level, something very interesting happens: The player simply chooses to start over. Not reroll a second character, not "to see a different story", just simply turn the one character they had, back to essentially the way it was when they began. The main difference is that the player gets a different emblem based on how many times he has done this.

So now we have a system where not only is progression not about giving the player a +5, but the player wants goes through the exact same progression several times.

But won't not getting +5 remove the RPG aspect? RPG is not only about getting a +5, it's about customizing your character and how the character plays. Making everything based around +5 is taking the easy way out.
Have you ever played COD? Some part are IMO pretty horrible so I wouldn't recommend sticking around for too long, but when comparing COD to end game MMORPG grind, in COD you actually have significantly more options on how you can to customize how your character plays, and you can completely change how you play in only a few button presses, while still keep working towards reaching your goals.

Should there be progression in games? Yes, the vast majority of players definitely want it.
Is +5 required? One of the top complaints you see every year with COD from dedicated players is that gun A appears to be an overall slightly better option than gun B, and that this is unacceptable. So no, +5 is not required, in fact RPG is pretty much the only genre where +5 is even accepted by a part of the player base.
Some games have tried to replace the +5 stat grind by giving the player the option to access various different shinies. This has never worked, the player need some clear goals and a clear path with several small goals which the player gets to on his path to the larger overall goals.

Would the COD model work exactly the same in an MMORPG? No, I do not think so, there are a lot of differences between the two genres. However something similar can definitely work, and if nothing else COD is proof that a game can have a progression without giving +5 to your gear, and still have extremely high player retention (COD has more players than WOW, and basically has one expansion per year with some small updates in between).

In before "Derp, COD players are dumb anyway".
I love everything you said here.
Watch the Clowder of Cather in this video http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=j7uTcYvoEbU

ChazDoit's Avatar


ChazDoit
11.28.2012 , 08:47 AM | #24
Some people seem to think that I'm saying "there shouldn't be any progression" "there shouldn't be any new gear" "there shouldn't be grind" and that is NOT what I'm saying.

What I'm talking about here is VERTICAL progression, and what I would like to see is a shift towards Horizontal Progression, we have already seen some glimpses of this in SWTOR, for example the Rated War Hero gear, is something you have to work really hard, some people would even say grind, but it doesn't make you more powerful, it gives you more prestige, it gives you bragging rights, but it's not statistically more powerful, it's just an empty shell as far as I know.

The same with the Black-Purple, the Black-Orange, the exclusive pets and speeders from the PVP Vendor, these have no impact at all in your stats, except for the crystals but as far as I know they are in line with any other crystal of their level.

So in short, to the people saying "Hey if you take out progression and gear grind from an MMO it will be boring" that is a Straw Man, that is not what I'm saying, I'm talking specifically about Vertical progression, the one that makes you statistically more powerful, if you want to better undestand what I'm saying please check out the 2 videos from Taugrim and Extra Credtis at the end of my Original Post.

William_Smith's Avatar


William_Smith
11.28.2012 , 08:53 AM | #25
Your old Battlemaster is no obsolete. And neither is Champ or Cent gear. You get the new Elite Waro, rip out the mods, and put it in those older loots. Now, you are just as powerful as the new group, but you look more unique since it is something none of the new guys will be able to have. This makes it a win/win for anyone who currently has BM CHMP or CNT gear.
Valor 70+
Light Side V Title and Speeder | Dark Side V Title and Speeder
All Companions 10,000/10,000 Affection Including HK-51

kirorx's Avatar


kirorx
11.28.2012 , 09:33 AM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by William_Smith View Post
Your old Battlemaster is no obsolete. And neither is Champ or Cent gear. You get the new Elite Waro, rip out the mods, and put it in those older loots. Now, you are just as powerful as the new group, but you look more unique since it is something none of the new guys will be able to have. This makes it a win/win for anyone who currently has BM CHMP or CNT gear.
no matter how rare my centaurian inquisitor gear looks, that stuff is still ridiculous.

I am a sith, not a sea urchin.

Mix that gear with a with a warhero inquisitor head piece and I look like a coral reef,

Should jimmy buffet do my inquisitors theme music?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQGTaS0IFOs
Watch the Clowder of Cather in this video http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=j7uTcYvoEbU

Floegens's Avatar


Floegens
11.28.2012 , 09:57 AM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by kirorx View Post
I am a sith, not a sea urchin.
Mix that gear with a with a warhero inquisitor head piece and I look like a coral reef,
This made me spit out my coffee all over my workstation, u made my day, thx for that. Oh and i had to save this for future giggles in my signature if u dont mind.
JubelÍÍ|Sniper
TRE

translucentwolf's Avatar


translucentwolf
11.28.2012 , 10:16 AM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by William_Smith View Post
Your old Battlemaster is no obsolete. And neither is Champ or Cent gear. You get the new Elite Waro, rip out the mods, and put it in those older loots. Now, you are just as powerful as the new group, but you look more unique since it is something none of the new guys will be able to have. This makes it a win/win for anyone who currently has BM CHMP or CNT gear.
This. I have some old 1.1 champ gear, and I actually use it for PVE ( after mod moves, of course ).

I'm all for phasing out existing sets, and moving on to new. Think of your BM suit like a white raklet. You have it. Nobody else will ever get it. Battlemaster will, in time, be a status symbol.

You will have a suit of armor for a more civilized age. Not as clumy or random as a recruit...
That which does not kill you merely postpones the inevitable.

William_Smith's Avatar


William_Smith
11.28.2012 , 10:22 AM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by kirorx View Post
no matter how rare my centaurian inquisitor gear looks, that stuff is still ridiculous.

I am a sith, not a sea urchin.

Mix that gear with a with a warhero inquisitor head piece and I look like a coral reef,

Should jimmy buffet do my inquisitors theme music?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQGTaS0IFOs
This OP wrote about how the Battlemaster gear is now useless. I gave him a 100% true fact about how it is not useless. Your retort was "its ugly". Your argument does not invalidate a single thing I wrote. The fact remains, those who have it now, can keep using it and look different from others or have it like a status symbol and mod it with the top stuff so you are still on top of the PvP chain.

If you just want to complain about how gear looks you can do it on one of the threads already up that deal with that. Thanks.
Valor 70+
Light Side V Title and Speeder | Dark Side V Title and Speeder
All Companions 10,000/10,000 Affection Including HK-51

translucentwolf's Avatar


translucentwolf
11.28.2012 , 10:32 AM | #30
I think people are mainly complaining about having to grind for the next set of gear.

On the positive side, WH will not cost regular wz comms. No more need for ranked. Rejoice.
That which does not kill you merely postpones the inevitable.