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Gamebreaking behaviour within hardmode flashpoints

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Flashpoints, Operations, and Heroic Missions
Gamebreaking behaviour within hardmode flashpoints

Icestar's Avatar


Icestar
12.26.2012 , 03:31 PM | #271
Please dont use darkred colour and write in the middle of quotes!

Quote: Originally Posted by Ergecrs View Post
They did and you created this thread about it. Probably because someone in a group your in didnt have the time to kill bosses so you came to the fourms to state it all needed changed.
Hold your horses'! You assume that something happened to me so I had to start a entire thread about it. I get enough attention RL so there is no need for more here. I write constructive threads with a major subject with a few months apart. My thread about 50 PvP, no skill only gear? turned out to be a great feedback thread for Bioware and with this recent patch, exactly the feedback I and many others pointed out were implemented. It was a tough battle though, since the geared level 50s fought hard for their gear, like many do in in this thread.

Quote: Originally Posted by Ergecrs View Post
I have a great time doing Ops with my guild. Do I find running with random pugs fun, most of the time no because well its random pugs.
I am glad that you have fun, I was speaking about PUGs where the chat usually has two lines : "Hello, fast run please" and "Thanx"

Quote: Originally Posted by Ergecrs View Post
They did this with the very first FP and pretty much every one hates it after they have ran it once because there are way to many cut scenes in it and there are other things in the game people would be rather doing.
There should be a option to skip cut scenes I agree with you but only if it is a option that can be selected at groupfinder and not during the actual run. The players should be able to choose to skip that from the start


Quote: Originally Posted by Ergecrs View Post
People absolutly hate this Flashpoint or did you not see the post a few below this one stating how they leave it.
That is probably because the playerbase is used to running in a white room with a boss in the end, like Battle for Ilum. I have done Kaon under siege many, many times and I still love it, makes me want to see "The Walking Dead" everytime.

Icestar's Avatar


Icestar
12.26.2012 , 03:34 PM | #272
Quote: Originally Posted by Ephesia View Post
So what? even if it is an alternative, does that make it immune to criticsm?
I was simply clarifying that making EVERY boss mandatory for completion was not my original statement, nor is it something I would debate for today.

Dampylle's Avatar


Dampylle
12.26.2012 , 03:43 PM | #273
Prior to 1.6 I might have been able to understand the sentiment regarding gearing your character. Likewise if Exotech was not a watered down version of the Columi armor farmed from the bosses at the end of each run I could understand a desire to farm that as a temp piece. However given these facts when it comes to "upgrading your gear" it is more logical both long and short term to focus on the Columi drops.

When you factor that Columi itself is only a tier 2 armor for PvE and that you can effectively skip tier 3 (Rakata gear) all together by farming Black Hole Commendations in order to purchase Mk1 armors and Campaign armorings for the set bonus... the mid run bosses become rather a hindrance to upgrading rather than an asset.

Though one could argue that in terms of secondary stats Black Hole may be a side grade as opposed to an upgrade there is at the very least a marginal improvement in regards to primary stats versus the equivalent Rakata gear.

The point I am trying to make here is that if you are looking to gear your character post 1.6 the most efficient way seems to be to pick up your free Tionese set and then begin farming both Columi gear and Black Hole Commendations. Even if one assumes a skip on the one skippable end boss it should be noted that via your weeklies and the actual HM runs you will accumulate Columi Commendations to purchase that one missing piece in terms of the armor set . The whole time one works on Columi in this way they would also be farming Black Hole Commendations in order to begin further upgrades.

In terms of learning ones job, you should know the basics by the time you reach end game already. In terms of tactics doing a simple straight tank fight on a mid boss is not really going to teach you any tricks beyond what you likely already know.. It is the end bosses and the like who have the more advanced strategies that, at least in my personal experience, prove to be the greater tactical primers. These end bosses though are just that, primers to prepare one for the rigors of Operations where tactics, focus, and team work can make or break a run. While I can admit some mid bosses such as the HK fights on Hard Mode or Jindo can help teach how to watch for patterns, or even how the Trandoshan on FE can help teach how pulling to the proper location can make a huge difference... I would also be forced to point out that these are not bosses you generally see skipped.

In the end one can both properly gear themselves and begin to assimilate end game tactics via the end bosses and those that are not skipped.

It is however no less selfish to insist additional bosses be fought at your discretion than it is for others to impose the view that they should not. It in the end should come down to the majority preference of the group. Forcing one style or the other as mandatory will result in angry portions of the fan base. Instead it would be more logical to facilitate a way for each group to more easily find like minded individuals such as a box one could tick for full run vs not.

Do I do full runs by default? No, I am currently beginning work on my Black Hole gear and Campaign armorirngs
and so tend to speed run if nothing is said because what I need is the commendations. More often than not this is the majority consensus in groups I have ran with as they mostly want the Columi and Comendations as well which makes sense when you consider what I have mentioned earlier in this post.

In the end the only way to be considerate rather than selfish is to look to what the majority of the group doing the run would prefer. If it is not what you personally would prefer then you are left with two options. You can either seek a group more to your liking, or finish the run as the majority would choose and then seek another group afterwards.

lironBD's Avatar


lironBD
12.27.2012 , 02:38 AM | #274
it's not about gear... I really enjoy when people do a FP for first time and want ot run it with all dialogs and quests including bonus.

skipping is just meh...
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ladwar's Avatar


ladwar
12.27.2012 , 06:31 AM | #275
i have to say this whole thread is kindof funny. i skip as many trash mobs and bosses as i can. gear from flashpoint is ok but its easy to skip whole tiers at the end game. my last alt went from full recruit to rakata+ in 4 days barely touching columi gear and thats kindof slow. in full recruit gear i tanked ec sm without trouble for a few pieces and the rest from HM LI and koan and dailies in blackhole and section x. this whole idea of fighting all the bosses is funny, there are way better ways of getting credits and if u don't believe u can't skip tiers without credits to buy it u are doing it wrong. its all the noobs who want the gear handed to them for minor work that agree with making everyone fight every boss in hardmode flashpoints they get que for and are usally the ones i end up carrying or quiting from becuase they don't follow instrutions.

Koordynator's Avatar


Koordynator
12.27.2012 , 08:56 AM | #276
Quote: Originally Posted by ladwar View Post
i have to say this whole thread is kindof funny. i skip as many trash mobs and bosses as i can. gear from flashpoint is ok but its easy to skip whole tiers at the end game. my last alt went from full recruit to rakata+ in 4 days barely touching columi gear and thats kindof slow. in full recruit gear i tanked ec sm...
Yeah sure, but imagine there sometimes are new players with their first 50 and they may not be able to avoid Columi by being babysitted by their guild, especially if they haven't got one yet.

I'm Dread Guard geared myself and never mind to help fresh 50s to get their chances for better gear by killing bosses I could skip, even if it cost me... a few minutes! :O


What is wrong with gear progression in my opinion is The Rain of Black Hole Coms Falling Down Everywhere made for noobs which weren't able to do ECHM in Rakata gear. Don't get me wrong, not the BH coms itself but allowing to get them so easy way. Operation level gear should be for people who do operations... what else it can be used for?
People farm Black Hole (even Campaign nowadays) set just by doing daily HM flashpoint and then they think they're better then the fresh ppl just because of it. And then they cry and ask for nerfs (or better rewards ...lol, seriously? oO) on the forums because they cannot do LIHM without BH gear.

Summary, I don't get it why you want to remove Columi and Rakata from gear progression (Tionese is removed already). Do you really like 2 Tiers of PvE gear in the game?

ZeroPlus's Avatar


ZeroPlus
12.27.2012 , 11:20 AM | #277
Quote: Originally Posted by Dampylle View Post
In terms of learning ones job, you should know the basics by the time you reach end game already. In terms of tactics doing a simple straight tank fight on a mid boss is not really going to teach you any tricks beyond what you likely already know.. It is the end bosses and the like who have the more advanced strategies that, at least in my personal experience, prove to be the greater tactical primers. These end bosses though are just that, primers to prepare one for the rigors of Operations where tactics, focus, and team work can make or break a run. While I can admit some mid bosses such as the HK fights on Hard Mode or Jindo can help teach how to watch for patterns, or even how the Trandoshan on FE can help teach how pulling to the proper location can make a huge difference... I would also be forced to point out that these are not bosses you generally see skipped.
Great post Dampylle. If I may though, I would like to comment on the part I quoted from your post.

I find that the fights that are the "greater tactical primers" that force players to think and react are actually the "bonus boss" fights in the Hard mode FPs. Those are the ones that teach you to pay attention and prepare you for what will come. They are also the ones that most groups avoid.

Sith Entity in False Emperor: boss disappears and 3 ghosts need to be tanked/interrupted/killed for boss to reappear.
Chief Engineer Kels in Boarding Party: kill the 2 droids while running towards the *one* reactor that is not overloading to avoid taking massive damage from the other 3 that are overloading.
Replicator in Directive 7: boss splits into 3, then each one splits into 4. Fun fight.
Guid Patriarch in Battle of ilum: never been able to do this! But watch the fight: knockbacks, aggro resets, enrage timer? Yes please.
etc, etc, etc...

You get to a point that it isn't about the gear but rather about the "experience" and what that "experience" can teach you. Unfortunately, I'm coming to the conclusion that most people don't want to "learn" they just want the gear.

Solution? No idea... maybe have the FP quest also reward (along with the Columi commendaion) a BH commendation if all "mandatory" bosses are dead and an "extra" BH commendation if the "optional" boss is also dead (i.e: 1 Columi and 2 BH commendations for a "full run")? Would that make people be more open to the idea of a "full run"? I don't know...
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DarknessInLight's Avatar


DarknessInLight
12.27.2012 , 11:21 AM | #278
Quote: Originally Posted by Icestar View Post
There has always been some kind of mobskipping in either small or large scale in flashpoints but the latest trend is simply wrong.

It seems that teams doing flashpoints skip some of the bosses and have no respect for the ones that are signing up to get better gear.

Please respect the players that join flashpoints with groupfinder to gear up, it is enough to wait for ages for them to pop.

Alternatively Bioware could make the flashpoint not complete unless all bosses are dead (the way it should be)

Thoughts?

Is it fair to ignore players in the team that needs gear and steamroll through the flashpoint not listening at all?
Wanna talk about gamebreaking behavior? How about people queuing up for HM FP's in GF? Lately there have been an influx of Level 50's with Sub 50 gear coming into Lost Island, which is a Tier 2 Flashpoint and should have a gear requirement. Another issue with GF involving LI is that it is allowing mixed DPS to queue. For the LR-5 droid fight, you need to have either both Ranged DPS or both Melee DPS. Having one of each will cause the team to wipe because there are two different sets of strategies based on the type of DPS you bring to the fight. I know some of you will disagree with me, and that's your viewpoint, but this is mine.
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Dampylle's Avatar


Dampylle
12.27.2012 , 12:01 PM | #279
Quote: Originally Posted by ZeroPlus View Post
Great post Dampylle. If I may though, I would like to comment on the part I quoted from your post.

I find that the fights that are the "greater tactical primers" that force players to think and react are actually the "bonus boss" fights in the Hard mode FPs. Those are the ones that teach you to pay attention and prepare you for what will come. They are also the ones that most groups avoid.
I agree and I do see your point. The specific reason I did not mention them is actually because even in groups where you do all the bosses between point A and B it is often done skipping trash and secondary objectives needed to trigger Bonus Bosses. Boarding Party for example has something like 4 objectives in the bonus if I recall correctly and one of them has to do with Trash mobs, another with specific mobs (Though I admit I do not recall if those two are required for the boss).

Though it is also worth mentioning that in some of those cases such strategies can also be learned via the story mode flashpoints. Cadimumu has an end boss that also requires the tactic of being aware of the 4 sections of the fight room and Athis also has a boss that uses a similar trick with specters between rounds that have their own DoT you have to be aware of as well.

The reason I mentioned HK in particular though is pretty much exactly what you are talking about. In both versions of the fight with HK you have environmental hazards be they turrets or spawning waves of enemies that you have to deal with as well. I so often see people complain about dealing with adds on this boss or that boss that I can not help but wonder if they simply did not learn these tactics.

I honestly have never wiped to HK in foundry unless it glitched, and never wiped to HK in FE unless someone was not listening in regards to how you need to deal with things when he CCs the tank. But I have on numerous occasions had to replace people int he later case because they just refused to listen.

This is the main reason I have a problem with the argument given that it is specifically to "learn tactics" because so often I run into people who want the gear, but who refuse to listen and learn the tactics. It is not just HM Flashpoints either because I have had the same problem when trying to teach people Aurora Cannon and having them not listen and suddenly the group is wiping to Champs.

So to expand on my point about tactics. I hear the complaint in this thread "we need to do all the bosses to learn tactics" but I must reaffirm that no you really do not. A lot of these tactics have been primed in story mode flashpoints at much lower levels. Yes the HM versions will force you to use them because you can not just steam roll through due to level. But they are not the only way to learn these tactics if it is your goal. Even at a higher level if you choose to be observant you can see the tactics in those fights even though you can survive without them (depending on class).

I do agree with you in regards to incentives. I do not think forcing bosses as an objective is the way to do things but if you added a bonus objective to the daily (we do have dailies with bonuses after all) then that could provide the people with a reason to try them if they had time for it.

But as I already said forcing one style or the other is just going to result in complaints.

At the end of the day it honestly all comes down to communication. Tanks do not mystically know a run because they are tanks and the good ones upon doing a new run will say "hey I have not done this one so give me the run down before the bosses" and thus they learn. But the same should be true of DPS and Healers... if you do not know the tactics you can ask. Yes some people do not care, but in my experience there are plenty of people who will gladly answer. Likewise communication as so many have said is the key in regards to all the optional bosses or bonus bosses. If you want to learn or need a drop your best bet is to politely ask. But do not make demands or go pull a boss no one wants to do because in the end that hurts you.. They do not have to save you if you pull agro and the pull will reset with deaths. But it can lead t those who are hostile to such antics voting you out or even blocking you.

Be polite, be considerate, and communicate... and it will get you a lot farther than trying to force what you want on people who disagree.

Icestar's Avatar


Icestar
12.27.2012 , 04:15 PM | #280
Quote: Originally Posted by DarknessInLight View Post
Wanna talk about gamebreaking behavior? How about people queuing up for HM FP's in GF? Lately there have been an influx of Level 50's with Sub 50 gear coming into Lost Island, which is a Tier 2 Flashpoint and should have a gear requirement.
A good thing to have in mind next time a player screams "Fast run only!!!" denying a player a bosskill that could have improved that players gear a bit.

Even Exotech helps out more then tionese

My statement of gamebreaking ripples through to even harder content, if players cant get better gear what are they supposed to wear?