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Cunning or Aim?


Sippix's Avatar


Sippix
12.03.2012 , 06:44 PM | #31
Quote: Originally Posted by Evuo View Post
Let's be careful about generalizing here. An 8/31/2 AP is most definately not going to be stacking power over aim with the access to the 9% aim skill and lack of 6% tech crit a 4/6/31 Pyro has access to.
Why would anyone run AP? Even in PVE, AP is just sub-par when compared to the amount of actual DPS that Pyro can provide. To say, "I'm AP and my damage is always on the top of the chart," is to say that no one else on your team is doing very good. AP just cannot pull the damage that Pyro can - period.

Quote: Originally Posted by Evuo View Post
As far as the amount of expertise, take whatever you can get away with having for greater damage dealing potential. But this idea that there is a sharp DR at 1200 is bit overexaggerated in my opinion. I put the links below to some of the graphs that plot out expertise's bonus conversion for damage done, received, and healing boost respectively. Make of it what you will, but I wouldn't refer to it as "sharp."
Using Advanced Reflex Armoring 27's in the Belt and Wrist along with Hawkeye crystals in the MH and OH provide a larger damage increase than stacking Expertise over 1200. This is simple math that can be done with using a calculator. Doing so, you only lose about 1.75% damage reduction, from ~1390 Expertise to ~1200 Expertise.

Quote: Originally Posted by Evuo View Post
Slow down here, we cannot make this a blanket conclusion about all PT dps specs. Aim adds approximately 0.2 damage per point while power adds 0.23 damage per point. Aim additionally adds a small amount of +crit that is not on the crit rating DR curve.
Actually, the Crit Rating gained from stacking Aim does have its own DR table. That's been a known fact since near the start of the game, when people were gearing up in January. Also, pushing high Crit Rating does not make you deal more damage - It only gives you the potential to roll a critical hit. That's why DPS (even of other classes) goes Power heavy, along with Surge. Even for PVE, your crit rating should never exceed 300.

Quote: Originally Posted by Evuo View Post
Now the gentleman to whom you are addressing uses a 4/6/31 pyro build for PVP which does not have access to the 9% aim skill. With the large amount of +crit chance skills and the 4pc eliminator set bonus, it is reasonable to choose the power favoring option for more bonus damage. Additionally, there is no such mod that has both high aim and high power.
Steely Resolve should only be used as a bolster for PVE damage mechanics. You should still always stack secondary stats heavier than primary stats, as any DPS. Having the 9% increase to total Aim only helps give that little extra, since it is used in place of TD builds (which burst is not necessary for pve). Like I said, no DPS PT should ever be stacking Aim.
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SgtKlavier's Avatar


SgtKlavier
12.03.2012 , 10:30 PM | #32
Quote:
Steely Resolve should only be used as a bolster for PVE damage mechanics. You should still always stack secondary stats heavier than primary stats, as any DPS. Having the 9% increase to total Aim only helps give that little extra, since it is used in place of TD builds (which burst is not necessary for pve). Like I said, no DPS PT should ever be stacking Aim.
Your logic is still flawed concerning the value of stats and the increase to dps they provide, which includes both the individual contribution of a stat and its relation to other stats. To put it in a somewhat simple example, I'll consider just aim, power, and crit, with base values of 2000, 1000, and 200 respectively. I won't include steely resolve, but you should have the sorc buff at all times, yielding a total of 2100 aim. With these stat values we get 650 bonus damage and 25.83% crit chance (including just the baseline of 5%, no talents or anything).

Now say, as you suggest, that I stack more for power, so I arbitrarily move over 1000 points of aim to power. Note that in actuality, aim does not come in a 1 to 1 ratio with respect to power, except in augments, which is basically the main point of the argument, as we do not have much control over aim vs. power in anything but augments (if modding appropriately). This example is just to illustrate a point. After switching, I now have 1050 total aim, 2000 power, and 200 crit rating. From here we have two options, to leave as is, or normalize to the crit chance obtained in the first set. Leaving as is produces:
670 bonus damage and 20.23% crit chance.

My guess would be that 5% crit chance is worth much more dps wise than 20 bonus damage, but that may be up for debate. To make it simpler, I will normalize crit chance to the previous 25.83% by taking out power. This gives 1050 aim, 1760 power, and about 390 crit rating for only 614 bonus damage and 25.83% crit. I could take out aim instead of power, but then I would be losing a large amount of crit chance from aim and end up with: 720 aim, 2000 power, and 480 crit rating, for an even lower bonus damage value of 604.

As a result, aim is always more valuable than power unless optimal dps was achieved by running with 0 crit rating. For any quantity n of power you would prioritize over aim, you can make up the bonus damage difference with surplus by putting n+x into aim where x is the amount of aim equal to the value of crit rating needed to produce the same cumulative crit chance. In other words, n+x in aim produces better stats than the combination of n in power and x in crit rating.

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Evuo
12.04.2012 , 04:48 AM | #33
Do you like quoting me and randomly inserting statements that address things I did not say, or are you just ignorant that quoting someone means you are addressing that person?

Quote: Originally Posted by Sippix View Post
Why would anyone run AP? Even in PVE, AP is just sub-par when compared to the amount of actual DPS that Pyro can provide. To say, "I'm AP and my damage is always on the top of the chart," is to say that no one else on your team is doing very good. AP just cannot pull the damage that Pyro can - period.
AP is still a DPS spec. As long as it exists, players will run it.

That being said a player will run AP to:
Offer a greater scoring threat in huttball
Perform better at solo defending a node
Offer a high chance of breaking an opponent's peel at the start of Civil War
Move quickly between the doors in Voidstar
May run the IGC for the guard option without hampering their damage dealing potential as much as a Pyro would
Have the option to remove themselves from a meaningless conflict so everything is not a kill you before you kill me situation
God forbid they actually like the spec and want to run it.

A great player knows his limits and how to overcome them. That includes switching specs to adapt to the situation. With the free respec benefit for subscribers and the legacy field respec this is a constant option.

A pyro will do more damage, but I never said they wouldn't. Good job quoting me and addressing that as it had absolutely nothing to do with what I said.

Quote: Originally Posted by Sippix View Post
Using Advanced Reflex Armoring 27's in the Belt and Wrist along with Hawkeye crystals in the MH and OH provide a larger damage increase than stacking Expertise over 1200. This is simple math that can be done with using a calculator. Doing so, you only lose about 1.75% damage reduction, from ~1390 Expertise to ~1200 Expertise.
Once again I did not argue against that, this is simple reading that can be done by using your eyes in conjunction with your brain. My concern is over the notion that there is this "sharp", as you called it, DR curve at 1200. Which from looking at the graphs is not the terminology I would use to describe the trend at that level. If you think that is "sharp" then so be it, but if that is the case then we probably couldn't agree on what is considered the color brown or red.

Quote: Originally Posted by Sippix View Post
Actually, the Crit Rating gained from stacking Aim does have its own DR table. That's been a known fact since near the start of the game, when people were gearing up in January. Also, pushing high Crit Rating does not make you deal more damage - It only gives you the potential to roll a critical hit. That's why DPS (even of other classes) goes Power heavy, along with Surge. Even for PVE, your crit rating should never exceed 300.
How about you read what was typed? I clearly wrote the +crit from stacking aim is not on the crit rating DR curve, that means exactly what it says. The stat CRIT RATING has its own DR curve that does not include the bonus crit from stacking aim.

Quote: Originally Posted by Sippix View Post
Steely Resolve should only be used as a bolster for PVE damage mechanics. You should still always stack secondary stats heavier than primary stats, as any DPS. Having the 9% increase to total Aim only helps give that little extra, since it is used in place of TD builds (which burst is not necessary for pve). Like I said, no DPS PT should ever be stacking Aim.
Again, why am I being quoted here?
I understand your preference for power as it applies to a particular situation I mentioned. But the "no DPS PT should ever be stacking aim statement" is a foolish one. You've already been shown to be wrong in multiple contexts (one which I mentioned back in my first post in this thread). That's the problem with a blanket statement you aren't accounting for exceptions.