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immortal question?


Mewmaster's Avatar


Mewmaster
11.17.2012 , 02:25 PM | #1
i have read/heard many different things, is immortal good for both pve and pvp. i am on a pvp server but mostly play pve so i was just wondering

also, is this website any good, i have had good luck with it so far.

http://www.noxxic.com/swtor/pve/sith.../talent-builds

thanks for the input

LilTsar's Avatar


LilTsar
11.18.2012 , 12:55 PM | #2
generally full 31 point immortal is considered practically broken due to the pathetic nature of the treetop talent crushing blow. it has a horrible damage:rage ratio and the threat and sunderation are both redundant with smash now. for both pve and pvp especially an immo/veng hybrid is most popular, you pick up 'unstoppable' in tier 3 of veng for sure, and can go further up if you like.
The Shadowlands: The Further Legacy
Brunch, Cowpunk, Hansky, Indiga,
Swashbuckle, Sharu, Monky & Gettinsmashed

Elyxin's Avatar


Elyxin
11.18.2012 , 04:35 PM | #3
For the most part I agree with Lil. Full Immortal is not taken anymore by many end game tankers. Damage nerfs and the changes to crushing blow make it almost unneeded....your basic attack you get at LEVEL 1 does as much damage as crushing blow (more if you add in talents to boost it's crit chance). with the sunder stacks you can build with smash now, it's pretty much unneeded. the only benefit you get from it is the possibility of the really small cone effect...but this is mroe often the rarity then the norm.

I don't recommend it for leveling nowadays either.....UNLESS....you 1) want to be able to use all of your companions on a moments choice, 2) are planning on only going so far up the tree, and 3) are planning on having 50% or more of your time in FP's tanking. the biggest issue with the hybrid is lack of rage generation. Many high end tankers don't care bout this, but I found it an irritating loss in Random HM's (which I run allot of). this is the only reason I spec deep immortal anymore...and I still don't get crushing blow. It's just not worth it.

not when i get the same damage (and i can get higher crit chance) our of my level one skill....which costs 2 less rage. If vengeance didn't have so much juicy stuff in its tree for mitigation, I'd be half tempted to grab obliterate out of Rage simply for an extra attack. <----just idly thinking there btw....haven't really even tested that yet.

Mewmaster's Avatar


Mewmaster
11.18.2012 , 05:20 PM | #4
hi, thanks for the help, when i asked on chat, many people seemed to think that Rage is a great choice and that if i do a rage juggernaut, the main thing i have to change to go from tank to off-tank is the light saber form, and sometimes gear. so for tanking, should i stick with rage or go vengeance, sorry about the questions, i just keep hearing so many different things. thanks.

Elyxin's Avatar


Elyxin
11.18.2012 , 08:51 PM | #5
Quote: Originally Posted by Mewmaster View Post
hi, thanks for the help, when i asked on chat, many people seemed to think that Rage is a great choice and that if i do a rage juggernaut, the main thing i have to change to go from tank to off-tank is the light saber form, and sometimes gear. so for tanking, should i stick with rage or go vengeance, sorry about the questions, i just keep hearing so many different things. thanks.
they are flat out wrong. Anyone who looks at the trees will see why this is a horribad idea.

Man...I thought the FoTM crud with rage was getting out of hand, but this is simply ridonkulous.

Rage has absolutely NO mitigation skills that are viable. the reason Vengeance is the accepted option for tanking is the mitigation skills it gets. almost as many as the tanking tree. The hybrid builds try and capitalize on this with points in immortal and points in Vengeance. Rage is built completely around building up a proc based buff and releasing big hitting smashes (your go-to AoE). it is 95% a BURST DPS CLASS. even with the buffs it got in 1.4, it is STILL an under-performer in PvE compared to Vengeance for DPS. and it is simply Not an option for tanking...period. It's primary purpose is a balanced spec to do PvP and some PvE with. It is wholly unsuitable as a tank spec.

And I hope you take this in a decent light . Not getting on your case about it. You are asking honest questions because you want to know. thats good. it's just that the whole idea of someone mentioning that rage is good for tanking is so far beyond logic that im almost speechless. If you take even 10m to look at the trees you can see why it isn't a good idea.

Whoever was giving you that piece of tripe is most likely been playing for outside of...a few days now? and has no clue about how a juggernaut or a guardian works. ignore them. heck, put them on your ignore list. I'd be really hesitant about their capability at any other class too. do NOT listen to chat in game.

Mewmaster's Avatar


Mewmaster
11.18.2012 , 09:03 PM | #6
yeah, i had been wondering what they were talking about, that is what i get for asking on chat, thanks for the info and advice..

is this build any good it is a pvp build off the noxxic website, but it looks like it could be a good tank in pve just wanted an experts opinion? tried looking on the forums for a hybrid build but could not find any, i was probably not looking hard enough, or i was looking in the wrong place.

http://www.noxxic.com/swtor/pvp/sith.../talent-builds

thanks again for all the help and putting up with all these questions

Elyxin's Avatar


Elyxin
11.18.2012 , 09:17 PM | #7
Something else that I'd thought I'd mention. From a PvP perspective, Immortal is less about tanking, and more about CONTROL options. From that perspective, its not a bad spec. you will be bottom on the damage meters, but your duty is to guard and control other players so the real DPS on your team can do the damage. and the healers can heal.

Also, I reread your post...I missed where you said you were on a PvP server. that can influence peoples decisions. Most people play on a PvP server because...well...they like PvP. And to that effect Rage is a good spec for doing things. you can kill stuff decently with it in PvE (though it's clunky under lvl 40). but for serious PvP'ers, it's now a solid spec.

But it sucks goat Ba11z for tanking. Don't care who thinks what. it is not a tanking build. I would prefer to run full immortal over that any day of the week, twice on sunday.

Edit: just saw your last note man ill have to read it at home. work is blocking the site (they're stingy at times, what can i say)
Here's the skinny on all 3 specs (I've leveled 3 juggs, one of each, so this is personal experience as well as much testing) :

Immortal - decent tank spec, but suffers from low damage. threat isn't an issue, so for raiding you can still do it and be fine. especially if your in lower levels of gear and are starting out in raiding I'd suggest it. the vengeance spec and hybrid specs are better for seasoned players with high levels of gear. Immortal is probably the worst for solo play....but it's doable.

Vengeance - hands down the best DPS spec for PvE play. moderately OK PvP play (rage now trumps vengeance for this). Vengeance combined with your healing companion is the smoothest and fastest way to solo hands down. it is also a decent spec to do occasional tanking in (with the caveats i mentioned above). You can tank in this spec up through your mid 30's without any real tank gear (except a shield...need the shielding ability) by only switching to soresu form.

Rage - burst DPS and AoE spec. based on building up a proc and then unloading on a huge AoE smash. due to it's burst mechanics it's a great PvP spec. but due to it's design it is clunkier then vengeance for leveling. It suffers from rage depravation (yes, even after 1.4....) and the procs you need to get huge smashes aren't always available until you get to lvl 40. prior to that you end up with a real good fight where everything dies, then one or two fights where you hit like a wet noodle. This is great for PvP, but PvE it feels very cyclical compared to Vengeance's smooth rotation and consistent Rage generation.

In closing, here's my leveling advice TL-DR:
1) for lots of tanking, go immortal (50% or more of your time is tanking).
2) for smooth and fast leveling, or occasional tanking (lies then 50%), go vengeance,
3) if you PvP and want to do some PvE on the side, go Rage.
4) if you do NO TANKING WHATSOEVER, and want an alternative to Vengeance, then level as Rage. but do not tank with it.

Mewmaster's Avatar


Mewmaster
11.18.2012 , 10:02 PM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by Elyxin View Post
Something else that I'd thought I'd mention. From a PvP perspective, Immortal is less about tanking, and more about CONTROL options. From that perspective, its not a bad spec. you will be bottom on the damage meters, but your duty is to guard and control other players so the real DPS on your team can do the damage. and the healers can heal.

Also, I reread your post...I missed where you said you were on a PvP server. that can influence peoples decisions. Most people play on a PvP server because...well...they like PvP. And to that effect Rage is a good spec for doing things. you can kill stuff decently with it in PvE (though it's clunky under lvl 40). but for serious PvP'ers, it's now a solid spec.

But it sucks goat Ba11z for tanking. Don't care who thinks what. it is not a tanking build. I would prefer to run full immortal over that any day of the week, twice on sunday.

Edit: just saw your last note man ill have to read it at home. work is blocking the site (they're stingy at times, what can i say)
Here's the skinny on all 3 specs (I've leveled 3 juggs, one of each, so this is personal experience as well as much testing) :

Immortal - decent tank spec, but suffers from low damage. threat isn't an issue, so for raiding you can still do it and be fine. especially if your in lower levels of gear and are starting out in raiding I'd suggest it. the vengeance spec and hybrid specs are better for seasoned players with high levels of gear. Immortal is probably the worst for solo play....but it's doable.

Vengeance - hands down the best DPS spec for PvE play. moderately OK PvP play (rage now trumps vengeance for this). Vengeance combined with your healing companion is the smoothest and fastest way to solo hands down. it is also a decent spec to do occasional tanking in (with the caveats i mentioned above). You can tank in this spec up through your mid 30's without any real tank gear (except a shield...need the shielding ability) by only switching to soresu form.

Rage - burst DPS and AoE spec. based on building up a proc and then unloading on a huge AoE smash. due to it's burst mechanics it's a great PvP spec. but due to it's design it is clunkier then vengeance for leveling. It suffers from rage depravation (yes, even after 1.4....) and the procs you need to get huge smashes aren't always available until you get to lvl 40. prior to that you end up with a real good fight where everything dies, then one or two fights where you hit like a wet noodle. This is great for PvP, but PvE it feels very cyclical compared to Vengeance's smooth rotation and consistent Rage generation.

In closing, here's my leveling advice TL-DR:
1) for lots of tanking, go immortal (50% or more of your time is tanking).
2) for smooth and fast leveling, or occasional tanking (lies then 50%), go vengeance,
3) if you PvP and want to do some PvE on the side, go Rage.
4) if you do NO TANKING WHATSOEVER, and want an alternative to Vengeance, then level as Rage. but do not tank with it.

*Bows down to such helpfulness/genius* thank you so much for this help, i like the sound of Vengeance and am in the process of trying it out now (yay for subbed free re spec ). thanks again for all of this help and with dealing with my noobishness.

LilTsar's Avatar


LilTsar
11.19.2012 , 11:10 PM | #9
Quote: Originally Posted by Elyxin View Post
If vengeance didn't have so much juicy stuff in its tree for mitigation, I'd be half tempted to grab obliterate out of Rage simply for an extra attack. <----just idly thinking there btw....haven't really even tested that yet.
immo/rage flows very nicely, you get free force screams every time and since the game is smart enough not to consume both the free force scream and reduced cost force scream or smash proc at the same time, you also get free smashes more often than not. in terms of 'feel' its possibly my favorite, but it really isnt much more than that. for both 'real' pve and pvp the utility of immo/veng is far superior. noticeably less dps, but its like those 4piece tank pvp set bonuses, where you get 5% extra damage while guarding: its 5% of such garbage that its still trash. with those heavenly free respecs ive been using immo/rage for the daily hm, its nice for putting out slightly more damage on the bosses and big mobs pulls with obliterate as a mini-gap closer.

the flow of it has convinced me that immo deserves a point blank leap ala annihaltion maras, having that extra rage generator (and consistent free force screams with a mere 3 second reduction on leap cd) would make the high cost of crushing blow less daunting. of course until crushing blow is actually useful in some meaningful way this would only make immo/veng even better.
The Shadowlands: The Further Legacy
Brunch, Cowpunk, Hansky, Indiga,
Swashbuckle, Sharu, Monky & Gettinsmashed

Elyxin's Avatar


Elyxin
11.20.2012 , 10:15 AM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by LilTsar View Post
immo/rage flows very nicely, you get free force screams every time and since the game is smart enough not to consume both the free force scream and reduced cost force scream or smash proc at the same time, you also get free smashes more often than not. in terms of 'feel' its possibly my favorite, but it really isnt much more than that. for both 'real' pve and pvp the utility of immo/veng is far superior. noticeably less dps, but its like those 4piece tank pvp set bonuses, where you get 5% extra damage while guarding: its 5% of such garbage that its still trash. with those heavenly free respecs ive been using immo/rage for the daily hm, its nice for putting out slightly more damage on the bosses and big mobs pulls with obliterate as a mini-gap closer.

the flow of it has convinced me that immo deserves a point blank leap ala annihaltion maras, having that extra rage generator (and consistent free force screams with a mere 3 second reduction on leap cd) would make the high cost of crushing blow less daunting. of course until crushing blow is actually useful in some meaningful way this would only make immo/veng even better.
Excellent Info, thanks Lil . i agree with you on the free respecs....make tinkering allot more viable and worth doing. I think ill take your advice and try it out with dailies and see how it goes.