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Kaggath Series: Grievous vs Malgus

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
Kaggath Series: Grievous vs Malgus

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
11.22.2012 , 12:29 PM | #51
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
The reason I asked is because Admiral Trench would be helpful in finding Malgus' cloaked ships. But since he is unavailable, I would have to say that Malgus would win the space battle then. But only just, as the CIS has the swarms of droid fighters to rapidly respond to an attack.

As for land. I gotta go with Grievous' forces. In a straight up fight, the numbers are just too overwhelming. Now if Malgus played his cards right, he could pull it out.

I see, but Grievous isn't stupid though - if he realised there were cloaked ships, I'm sure he could devise a tactic to counter them.
Quote:
The duel? Malgus has the advantage of the Force, but Grievous has killed powerful Jedi. Which Grievous are we talking about though? 2D, TCW, or both?
In my eyes 2D Grievous is non-canon. So yes, Grievous would lose this fight. But as another poster said before, he has confronted Jedi and won/held his ground - so he'd be able to fend Malgus off it order to escape.

DarthBandeth's Avatar


DarthBandeth
11.22.2012 , 12:36 PM | #52
Quote: Originally Posted by ReiKai View Post
"Trillions of battle droids"? Hardly guys. He doesn't have that many. Not even a one one-hundredth of that. I wonder if anyone even watches TCW. I believe in one episode, those of the Banking Clans stated something along the lines of; "Well the Separatists just applied for a loan to commission another three-million battle droids." To which one of the Republic Senators cried out "Three million?! They'll wipe us out!"

If three-million droids is all it takes to threaten the Republic at that point, it's truly a sad, sad day in SW.

Now, with the Kaggath, even as it is a battle which includes power bases, if Grievous is killed, it doesn't matter how much of his power base is left, as without him it's an auto-loss. You could think of it like Chess. Once the King is captured, it doesn't matter how many pieces you still have left on the board. You've already lost. Malgus wrecks Grievous in combat. There's no question. And as far as armies go...

Even if you remove the Foundry level from Malgus' station, that only means he doesn't have an infinitely spawning army of droids. He still has an invisible, undetectable armada of ships, and his space station is invisible as well. Plus he has numerous alliances with non-human species who all serve him, as well as scientists that continue to devise and create weapons for him. This includes technology from the Colicoids.

All Grievous has are droids, droids and, guess what? More droids. That's it. He has no super-weapons, aside from that super ion-cannon on the Malevolence, which can be easily taken out by a fighter squadron. And when you have squadrons of invisible ships, Grievous has zero chance of winning in that kind of battle.

Grievous is a coward. Flat out. He never fights 1v1 unless he is assured victory. And when it becomes clear he won't win, he either runs away or calls in droids to intervene and pressure his opponent so he can get an opening. Malgus will take him apart.
Agreed with this 100%. Malgus wins due to stealth fighters.
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ReiKai's Avatar


ReiKai
11.22.2012 , 12:37 PM | #53
What makes up the bulk of Grievous' army though, are the B1 Battledroids. The most unintelligent and useless of the bunch. Their only purpose is as cannon fodder. So killing them by the score isn't all that noteworthy. The B2 or Super Battle Droids aren't much better. With Season 4 I think it was we see the Aquatic Type Battledroids, which're still basically B2's just made for swimming. The only droids of any intelligence were the Commander Droids (the ones that calculate tactics and such), but have no real combat abilities of their own. The Commando Droids are more effective as infiltrators.

Probably the most difficult droids to deal with are the Magnatar (is that it?) droids with the shock staves that Grievous and Dooku usually use as personal guards. As they are designed strictly for close combat, they'd probably be the only real threat for a strike team of Sith. But even Ahsoka early on was capable of overcoming them, all the while protecting a Huttlet.

In the end, as a General, Grievous isn't as good as others who have served. There was that one arachnid fellow, who was quite a tactician and even formulated a means of tracking cloaked vessels. And there was another, a Neimodian (of all things) who kept his formations tight in his blockade and refused to chase Anakin's fleeing fleet. Both of these guys I'd say are smarter leaders than Grievous, whose primary tactic seems to throw out overwhelming numbers. I will give him credit for the few traps he has laid for Obi-Wan and Anakin, however all of those backfired.

The one thing I haven't seen an answer to is how Grievous is going to deal with Malgus' invisible armada and battle station. Grievous has no way of detecting it, which enables Malgus to strike wherever and whenever he pleases and even use hit'n run gorilla tactics at his leisure. If it came down to a war of attrition, then Grievous certainly has more resources at his disposal. But this is only because, as the Op stated, Malgus is without the Foundry level of his base for this. If he had retained that, he could generate an infinite number of droids for his armies. So in terms of ground battles, Grievous has the advantage. However, in a space battle, Malgus' invisible fleet will dominate.

I would say it is an overall fair debate. If it had just been the Sith Empire against the CIS, then the Empire would take it hands down. Too many super weapons.
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Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
11.22.2012 , 12:49 PM | #54
Quote: Originally Posted by ReiKai View Post
Probably the most difficult droids to deal with are the Magnatar (is that it?) droids with the shock staves that Grievous and Dooku usually use as personal guards.
It's Magnaguard

As the OP I don't want to steal the debate, so I'll leave your points to everyone else. (And also devise some counter-arguments for stealth fleet as I have none at this time )

Warren-Stride's Avatar


Warren-Stride
11.22.2012 , 12:52 PM | #55
Totally forgot the Kaggath is a fight to the death!

The lack of a 1v1 confrontation, due to Grievous's cowardice (*Cough* strategic retreat *Cough*) would mean that their armies would clash and Grievous would end up winning in some underhanded way. Bombing his base, blowing up his ship, but he would get no where near Malgus to kill him. Well.... maybe he would, with about 10 of his bodyguards!
Quote:
The one thing I haven't seen an answer to is how Grievous is going to deal with Malgus' invisible armada and battle station. Grievous has no way of detecting it, which enables Malgus to strike wherever and whenever he pleases and even use hit'n run gorilla tactics at his leisure. If it came down to a war of attrition, then Grievous certainly has more resources at his disposal. But this is only because, as the Op stated, Malgus is without the Foundry level of his base for this. If he had retained that, he could generate an infinite number of droids for his armies. So in terms of ground battles, Grievous has the advantage. However, in a space battle, Malgus' invisible fleet will dominate.
I'm going to assume a bit here. If this tech was invented (to cloak a fleet/ battle station) thousands of years in the past and then somehow defeated, I would imagine there is a reason that the CIS/ Republic/ Empire do not use cloaked ships. They most likely know about their weaknesses, seeing as they were invented so long ago and tech has advanced far past that point.

So, although I do not have an exact answer, I will say that if the cloaked ships were so great and undefeatable, this tech, invented thousands of years ago by Grievous's time, would still be in use by major galactic powers. There must be a reason cloaked ships are not common in the era of the movies, a reason Grievous no doubt knows about.

WillDad's Avatar


WillDad
11.22.2012 , 01:14 PM | #56
I think Malgus has it, even without the Foundry. Let me quote someone here ,"Grievous would most likely win. The seperatist armies were incredibly expansive, numbering in the trillions I think, that could easily overwhelm Malgus' forces. Sure, Malgus has Sith, but we saw roughly ten percent of the Jedi sent to Geonosis survive the battle. Many of the survivors were Jedi Masters, so the Sith at Malgus' command would have to be extremely powerful."

My point is that 10% of the NON-battle hardened JEDI survived Geonosis. Note the word Jedi. These Jedi from the movies hadnt been tested in actual war since the time of Darth Bane (if I rememeber correctly) they are out of practice fighting actual armies. Sure they will fight the occasion rabble army, but nothing near the CIS armies. If these Jedi had fought many interstellar wars against large armies since the time of Darth Bane I would say that Grievious has a chance, but these Jedi werent at their best at all. Malgus' Sith on the other hand were conquering the Republic, they were battle hardened and were ready. Droids dont think well, rememember. So I say, about 1 Sith to every 1000 Droids. that would mean 100 fairly experienced Sith to 100,000 Droids If I did the Math correctly. So 1000 Sith to 1 million Droids.

Next, General Grievious himself. Pure death on legs with 4 arms when needed. Lightning fast and an excellant strategist. However, what i am taking into account is that one Obi-Wan Kenobi Defeated him by himself. General Grievious, was in the end, just another scrapped piece of metal. While Malgus was deafeated by 4 Jedi or Sith (not sure which one, if any are canon) and still survived to go on to write about his war efforts and was sustained by the Dark Side.

This is just how I think of it, if anyone can prove me wrong, please do so.
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ReiKai's Avatar


ReiKai
11.22.2012 , 01:19 PM | #57
Quote: Originally Posted by Warren-Stride View Post
Totally forgot the Kaggath is a fight to the death!
I'm going to assume a bit here. If this tech was invented (to cloak a fleet/ battle station) thousands of years in the past and then somehow defeated, I would imagine there is a reason that the CIS/ Republic/ Empire do not use cloaked ships. They most likely know about their weaknesses, seeing as they were invented so long ago and tech has advanced far past that point.

So, although I do not have an exact answer, I will say that if the cloaked ships were so great and undefeatable, this tech, invented thousands of years ago by Grievous's time, would still be in use by major galactic powers. There must be a reason cloaked ships are not common in the era of the movies, a reason Grievous no doubt knows about.
Actually it was because you (the player) steal Darth Serevin's stealth fighter and use its codes to get onboard Malgus' station and use a tracking beacon to allow the Empire's army to follow. However, General Hesker of the Imperial Guard and the Imperial Forces were still being routed by the invisible fleet. During the "False Emperor" Flashpoint, either either kill the scientist responsible for much of the tech on the station (dark side option), or spare him and make him turn the Flux Cannons against Malgus' fleet, thus giving Hesker and his forces a chance to counterattack.

Ultimately at the end of the FP, Malgus self-destructs the station, saying he no longer needed it. So it wasn't that the tech was defeated, just a number plot points were needed to allow the Player(s) to overcome the odds, and that required stealing a stealthed ship with the codes to find Malgus' fleet. Without that, they'd have been overwhelmed by Malgus' fleet.

Also, the reason why that tech wasn't used much in the future (Even during Clone Wars), is because it required specific crystals to power it (Adegan Crystals), and those became increasingly rare overtime.
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MasterMe's Avatar


MasterMe
11.22.2012 , 03:28 PM | #58
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
*evil cackle* Guess what the next thread is... Traya vs Revan! Heads will roll! Mwaha, mwaha, mwahahahahaha!

P.S. Don't feel you have to end the debate guys, you can keep debating till the cows come home
Well it should be interesting.

MasterMe's Avatar


MasterMe
11.22.2012 , 03:30 PM | #59
To make this more interesting, how about you announce which side you think will win (in your opinion) so that we can feel like we've won/lost. Obviously you would do this once you we were done arguing. Just a thought.

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
11.22.2012 , 04:25 PM | #60
Quote: Originally Posted by MasterMe View Post
To make this more interesting, how about you announce which side you think will win (in your opinion) so that we can feel like we've won/lost. Obviously you would do this once you we were done arguing. Just a thought.
Well obviously I'm going to side with Traya, but yes. Ever time I'll try to determine the winner of the last thread once the new thread starts, I tried with with the old vs series but most where draws.

P.S. Traya vs Revan will probably be 3rd, I've got another idea for number 2 - stay tuned