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New dread guard proc relic vs warhero relic

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Commando / Mercenary
New dread guard proc relic vs warhero relic

deadandburied's Avatar

11.28.2012 , 03:48 AM | #21
BTW the Dev Austin Peckenpaugh was wrong in the quote i previously posted. He said with 55% armor reduction of a dummy with 5814 armor would have a DR of 19.5%. I'll repost what he said then show my findings.

Operations training dummies have 5814 armor rating (not visible to you), which translates through our armor formula to about 35% DR. With your setup, you cut that armor rating down by 55%, effectively turning it into 2616 armor rating. [5814 * 0.45 = 2616] 2616 armor rating translates through our armor formula to 19.5% DR.

Therefore, an average Tracer Missile would deal 1804 kinetic damage, and a target with 19.5% DR would take 1452 kinetic damage. [1804 * 0.805 = 1452] This is only 3% different than the 1410 you reported, which given your small sample size is well within expectations.
His math is off. He said with full armor reduction that the DR is 19.5%. This probably explains why he also said the damage while low was within 3% of his math which he attributed to RNG. He was wrong on both counts. The real DR based on my non crit hits with full 55% armor reduction vs an Ops dummy is 21.8%. The Kinetic Relic was non critting for 219 full 55% armor reduction. Here's the damage values i got based on armor reduction.

0% armor reduction=182 ( no nothing)
20% armor reduction=196 (no armor piercing cell but using a +5 stack armor debuff)
35% armor reduction=207 (armor piercing cell only)
43% armor reduction=212 (armor piercing cell+2 stack armor debuff)
51% armor reduction=216 (armor piercing cell+4 stack armor debuff)
55% armor reduction=219 (armor piercing cell+5 stack armor debuff)

Note it only takes 1 grav round to apply a 2 stack armor debuff which exceeds the internal relic's damage. Note also that some people were complaining that there was no difference in damage between a 4 stack and a 5 stack when using any of our damage abilities. I believe these were mostly Mercs though. The above clearly shows that they were wrong.

100-78.2=21.8% DR

The DR with 55% armor reduction is 21.8% and not 19.5% vs an Ops dummy. Using the correct math and his post with tracer missle damage you get 1804*.782=1411. Which is only off by 1 and approx a 0.1% difference.

Reports are in that show the internal relic has a very high crit% for Troopers and Gunslingers. It seems to be critting based on Tech crit%. Oddly it seems it's crit% is higher than the Kinetic relic. I ran a few short tests to confirm the behavior and got the following results.

Internal relic crit% 34% with average damage at 266
Kinetic relic crit% 30% with average damage at 267

fyi i did let the armor debuff fall off several times during the Kinetic test. The sample size was very small at 1 test each at approx 12-13 minutes. A previous poster using the Internal relic had 314 hits with 115 being crits for a 36.6% crit rate. I tried an old Kinetic Relic and only achieved a 23% crit rate during several tests. If the crit rate of the Internal relic is significantly higher than the kinetic relic it could beat out the Kinetic relic. I think we need more logs with the new relics as they may be behaving differently than previously. Also need larger sample sizes to determine the crit rates of both types.

-NOTE- Do not use the Elemental or Energy relics as they both have a terrible crit rate for us.
Triggerfinger Itches, 50 Gunnery Commando, Premonition, The Harbinger

Gyronamics's Avatar

11.28.2012 , 04:12 AM | #22
No the crit rate is BS and ignores what you have.

You can be naked and still get a crit rate of 34% or fully geared and get a crit rate of 19%.

The crit rate is just as random on any proc relic.

The only stat it uses for sure is your crit multiplier.

This is nothing new, was the same back when proc relics were only from the fabricator.

deadandburied's Avatar

11.28.2012 , 04:42 AM | #23
Show me some data to confirm whatever you think the relics are doing. I'm not buying off on completely ramdom crit chance. Oh sure small samples will show a huge difference. But adding them all together gets the accuracy that much closer. I understand what you're saying. I just don't agree with you.

From the results i'm seeing the relics may be critting based on ranged crit% and or melee crit%. And or tech and power. Although i suspect it's ranged and melee.

So i just got naked and this is what i got using the Energy Relic.

69 hits with 3 of them being crits for 4.35% crit rate naked and no buffs.
This seems close enough as we have a base crit of 5% plus 1% for companion quest for 6% crit total.

FYI i've tested this before with my clothes on and was getting between a low of 7.5% and as high as 17%. The low of 7.5% was without buffs btw.
Triggerfinger Itches, 50 Gunnery Commando, Premonition, The Harbinger

Gyronamics's Avatar

11.28.2012 , 06:55 AM | #24
Fine lets post massive parses for more accuracy.

Plasma Cell
Kinetic DG Relic
Hammer Shots for 23m
35.26 Ranged Crit
42.27 Tech Crit
76.19 Crit Multi

Result = 41.84% crit rate, 1.76x crit multi

Plasma Cell
Elemental DG Relic
Hammer Shots for 7m and 9m
35.24% Ranged Crit
42.36% Tech Crit
76.19 Crit Multi

Result: 16.67 and 19.63% Crit Rate, 1.76x Crit Multi

Here's this thought I'm thinking.

From a players POV there's nothing to say which is better, we only know:

Energy and Kinetic are weakened by armour (but hit harder)
Elemental and Internal ignore armour (but hit weaker)

What if, the devs without making any note to players also had each crit rate link to a different attack type.


Kinetic = Tech Crit Rate
Elemental = Force/Melee Crit Rate
Internal = ???
Energy = ???

Of course that would be really really bloody annoying since the relics don't say anything on them about that but it would make sense...

deadandburied's Avatar

11.28.2012 , 07:20 AM | #25
So that looks to me to be confirming it's using tech crit for the DG Kinetic relic and force for the DG Elemental relic. I just did the same thing using the DG Kinetic relic although a shorter fight. My tech crit was 44.18%. The relic crit at 47.37%. Which is fine given the small sample size.

So it may look like this for which relic is using what for crit%


Just a theory me and my guildies been working on for a few days now.

BTW what is or was your crit rating at as this may effect the elemental and energy relics. I'm thinking base 5%+1% companion quests+5% from lucky shots and +X% from crit rating.
Triggerfinger Itches, 50 Gunnery Commando, Premonition, The Harbinger

Gyronamics's Avatar

11.28.2012 , 07:32 AM | #26
My crit without anything else is 10.3

5% smuggler buff
1% from comp
0.52 - 0.56 from willpower and strength
5% base

Total for the crit rates that have nothing to do with me as a commando ~22%

What a bunch of gits, it makes no sense to not tell players this.

deadandburied's Avatar

11.28.2012 , 07:46 AM | #27
Yep, means a lot of people got the wrong relics. Quite a few in my guild. I only started checking these out recently because our sorc was using the internal one and the crit rate was terrible during a raid. So we've been testing lots of relics on different toons. I just don't know if they're behaving the same as always or not. If they are behaving the same it's just another reason why i never believe what people say and would rather test myself. And or have help testing as you were good enough to do Gyro.

Humor me and give me your crit rating. It's about the only stat i don't have. Trying to math this.
Triggerfinger Itches, 50 Gunnery Commando, Premonition, The Harbinger

Gyronamics's Avatar

11.28.2012 , 08:07 AM | #28
Well thats 272 daily comms I need for the relic I actually should use....

If I get the extra 14% crit I've been robbed of by having an elemental instead of an internal relic then my default attack should be even closer to 1kdps which is nice.

nbayer's Avatar

11.28.2012 , 08:28 AM | #29
Good catch guys, I am updating the original post to advise the kinetic relic over the energy.

Gyronamics's Avatar

11.28.2012 , 08:47 AM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by deadandburied View Post
Humor me and give me your crit rating. It's about the only stat i don't have. Trying to math this.
You don't need it, already said my crit from crit is 10.3% but its 279 anyway.