Please upgrade your browser for the best possible experience.

Chrome Firefox Internet Explorer
×

Dread Guard Relic BiS?


dipstik's Avatar


dipstik
11.21.2012 , 04:44 PM | #71
the one person reporting 218 kinetic damage had a 35% debuff on the boss, not 20.

for mercs, best in slot might be kinetic, but for dot trees without 35% debuff i think internal damage is better.

also, if the kinetic damage can be dodged and shielded, then the average value that gets through would be less than what you get out of an internal proc relic. considering the merc did not report any shielded hits (does dreadtooth haave a shield generator), the attack might be a tech attack.

can people start uploading their parses with the kinetic relic up to torparse or something please?

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
11.21.2012 , 05:24 PM | #72
Operations bosses have 35% damage reduction from armor (tested on the ops training dummy). A 25% armor debuff (from merc/commando) gives a damage reduction of 26.25%. I don't have the unmitigated numbers for the kinetic proc relic in front of me, but it should be fairly easy to do the math and compute the final mitigated value as compared to the elemental proc (at 210).

A bit of quick math on the 218 number assuming 35% armor pen yields a pre-mitigation value of 282.20. Plugging this into an armor pen of 25% yields 208.12, which is actually worse than the elemental proc relic.
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Dragonslayer on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (combat sentinel) Nimri (df scoundrel)
Averith (hybrid sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (jugg tank) Effek (ap powertech)

AngelFluttershy's Avatar


AngelFluttershy
11.21.2012 , 05:30 PM | #73
Thank you Dack and everyone else for the number crunching! All this information is a great and I look forward to seeing more in the future.

Brittaany_Banks's Avatar


Brittaany_Banks
11.21.2012 , 06:31 PM | #74
Quote: Originally Posted by AshlaBoga View Post
DPS and Healing Proc relics are terrible. The only proc relic you should use is the tank proc relic.
It all depends on ones play style. Mechanics are broad enough in MMOs nowadays to allow different core mechanics to be played by the players on the same classes and get roughly similar outcomes even though the approach is different.
I don't care who you are. I don't care if you are male, or female, black, or white, gay, or straight, religious, or non-religious, old or young. I care about 3 things. Can you tank properly? Can you DPS properly? Can you heal properly?

NotRonin's Avatar


NotRonin
11.21.2012 , 09:04 PM | #75
Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
Operations bosses have 35% damage reduction from armor (tested on the ops training dummy). A 25% armor debuff (from merc/commando) gives a damage reduction of 26.25%. I don't have the unmitigated numbers for the kinetic proc relic in front of me, but it should be fairly easy to do the math and compute the final mitigated value as compared to the elemental proc (at 210).

A bit of quick math on the 218 number assuming 35% armor pen yields a pre-mitigation value of 282.20. Plugging this into an armor pen of 25% yields 208.12, which is actually worse than the elemental proc relic.
It depends on your spec. Arsenal commando has a 35% armor penetration from High Velocity Cyclinder, and then a futher 20% from tracer missile, to a total of 55%. So a proc relic with 288 energy will be better than an internal of 210. Whether a merc/commando should use a proc relic is another matter.

Assuming a raid setting, there will always be a 20% debuff on the armor. So the equation for which is 'better' can be summed up as following..

Energy proc = 288 * (1 - 0.35 * (1 - (0.20 + P))), where P is your armor penetration.

Internal proc = 210.

Rewriting for P, you have (1-0.35*(1- (0.2 + P))) = 0.73, expanding on the left

(1 - 0.35 * (0.8 - P)) = 0.73, move the 1 across

0.35 * (0.8 - P) = 0.27, diving by 0.35 both side

0.8 - P = 0.77

so P = 3%.

subtratcint 0.73 from both side, and moving 0.35P to the right

0.20 = 0.35 * P

P = 3%

In another words, if you have ANY armor penetration, it'll do more damage.

Dragonbgone's Avatar


Dragonbgone
11.21.2012 , 09:27 PM | #76
Quote: Originally Posted by dipstik View Post
the one person reporting 218 kinetic damage had a 35% debuff on the boss, not 20.

for mercs, best in slot might be kinetic, but for dot trees without 35% debuff i think internal damage is better.

also, if the kinetic damage can be dodged and shielded, then the average value that gets through would be less than what you get out of an internal proc relic. considering the merc did not report any shielded hits (does dreadtooth haave a shield generator), the attack might be a tech attack.

can people start uploading their parses with the kinetic relic up to torparse or something please?
Thank you very much for catching this!!!! I do apologize for any misinformation I posted. I did have a merc friend testing the kinetic relic. It completely slipped my mind about that. The Elemental is BiS ulness you're a Merc/Commando. The MMO-Mechanic post has been updated.
. : Messores Republicae : .
Reapers of the Republic

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
11.21.2012 , 09:38 PM | #77
Quote: Originally Posted by NotRonin View Post
It depends on your spec. Arsenal commando has a 35% armor penetration from High Velocity Cyclinder, and then a futher 20% from tracer missile, to a total of 55%.
Actually, it's 10% from the stance and 25% from tracer for a total of 35%.

Quote: Originally Posted by NotRonin View Post
In another words, if you have ANY armor penetration, it'll do more damage.
Not really. Armor debuffs haven't stacked since 1.3. 25% is the maximum raid armor debuff achievable in the game, which is above the 23% threshold. However, neither 25% nor 20% are assured. You can only get the 25% debuff from an arsenal merc, while the 20% debuff can come from a juggernaut or a properly spec'd sniper. Without the full 25%, the internal/elemental damage proc is superior to the kinetic/energy proc.

So basically, get the kinetic/energy proc if you are sure to have a merc/commando in your raid who is arsenal/gunnery spec. Otherwise, go internal/elemental. The difference in damage is quite small, so it's probably safest to go internal/elemental unless you yourself are arsenal/gunnery spec.
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Dragonslayer on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (combat sentinel) Nimri (df scoundrel)
Averith (hybrid sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (jugg tank) Effek (ap powertech)

Messiaah's Avatar


Messiaah
11.22.2012 , 12:16 AM | #78
Quote: Originally Posted by NotRonin View Post
It depends on your spec. Arsenal commando has a 35% armor penetration from High Velocity Cyclinder, and then a futher 20% from tracer missile, to a total of 55%. So a proc relic with 288 energy will be better than an internal of 210. Whether a merc/commando should use a proc relic is another matter.

Assuming a raid setting, there will always be a 20% debuff on the armor. So the equation for which is 'better' can be summed up as following..

Energy proc = 288 * (1 - 0.35 * (1 - (0.20 + P))), where P is your armor penetration.

Internal proc = 210.

Rewriting for P, you have (1-0.35*(1- (0.2 + P))) = 0.73, expanding on the left

(1 - 0.35 * (0.8 - P)) = 0.73, move the 1 across

0.35 * (0.8 - P) = 0.27, diving by 0.35 both side

0.8 - P = 0.77

so P = 3%.

subtratcint 0.73 from both side, and moving 0.35P to the right

0.20 = 0.35 * P

P = 3%

In another words, if you have ANY armor penetration, it'll do more damage.
Hi Not Ronin,

P = 11% due to diminishing return.

I did all the math but the forum bugged and everthing was lost, so i write only my solutions.

An Arsenal Mercenary will have a proc of 232 dmg points
Look here for the damage reduction numbers: http://www.swtor.com/community/showp...2&postcount=17

The sims will show if it is a better choice than a War Hero Relic of Boundless Ages.

EDIT: The proc should deal 225 damage because the relic deals 280 instead of 288 energy damage (my mistake), but simcraft might have some trouble with the armor formula, so 288 energy will end in 225 damage per hit what is the theoretical right damage amount.

I ran some sims which shows that the energy relic is better than the war hero relic.

So i would definately recommend the Dread Guard Boundless Ages and the Energy Proc Relic!
Guildlead - Seven Stuck
Kereg - Juggernaut Tank
Recruitment: open

NotRonin's Avatar


NotRonin
11.22.2012 , 12:25 AM | #79
Thanks for that. Didn't realize that the armor rating/defense is not linear.

OlosBC's Avatar


OlosBC
11.22.2012 , 12:51 AM | #80
About to have enough on my guardian. I'll go focus (gives 30% ArmPen) and smack a dummy and post results in a couple days.
Olos - 55 Hybrid Powertech
Fonia - 55 Madness Sorceror
<Dark Fury> of Jedi Covenant
Previously Fonia and Daygoru of Tempest server in SWG.