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What is the most usefull tank?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes
What is the most usefull tank?
 

wingzyeah's Avatar


wingzyeah
11.14.2012 , 03:09 PM | #1
Hello boys and girls, and srry for my eng. I wanna be a tank. I cant decide which one(guard or vanguard) is for me .Which one is the most usefull at the endgame?( btw is it hard to find a group for operations and wb?) I dont like easy characters, i have a lot of experience in another mmorpg. I want to choose rly interesting class.

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Dademoor
11.14.2012 , 04:26 PM | #2
I prefer the Vanguard/Bounty Hunter tank class, but many people seem to think it is a rather easy class to play. If you are looking fir diffuculty then I would suggest you try a Shadow/Assassin. They require quite a bit more concentration due to the various defensive cooldowns and such.

Guardian/Juggernaut are in a pretty strong place right now from what I understand. They are also the inbetween tank class. They are more passively survivable than Shadows/Assassins, but require more maintenance than the Vanguard/Bounty Hunter.

My personal preference would be to go either Assassin, or Bounty Hunter ... but thats just me, I never really got the feel for Juggernauts.

"What is the most useful tank?"

To be honest a player who takes the time and perfects their game will be equally useful no matter which tank class they pick. I would suggest starting with whichever one looks the more attractive to you and get them to the end of chapter 2. If you are not diggin the playstyle, pick a different one.
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Kitru
11.14.2012 , 06:39 PM | #3
Quote: Originally Posted by wingzyeah View Post
I cant decide which one(guard or vanguard) is for me
First off, it's important to remember that there are 3 tank capable ACs in the game: Shadows, Guardians, and Vanguards. Ignoring Shadows is going to put a serious damper on your options, especially if you're looking for high performance and interesting.

The primary differences between the tanks can be summed up relatively easily.

Vanguards are the simple tanks. They were explicitly designed as such. They have the fewest CDs, fewest attacks that they have to use, the simplest priority (it's pretty much Stockstrike else HiB else if Ammo 11-12 Ion Pulse else Hammer Shot while using Energy Blast on CD), and negligible active survivability contributions. If you're looking for complex or interesting beyond the basics of tank play, the VG is not for you. I start to yawn when I play my VG as opposed to my other tanks because he's so simple and boring.

Shadows are the fight knowledge and buff watching tanks. They require the most fight knowledge because of how they were designed: lots of self heals and specialized CDs. They require that you watch your buff bar more than any other tank because you have to watch for HS stacks, PA proc activation, and KW charges. They've also got CDs that really should be used and abused as much as possible thanks to their amazingly low CDs. The skill requirement to maintain threat is pretty low, whereas the skill requirement to stay alive is the highest of the tanks, however, they have the highest skill ceiling of all of the tanks, especially when you're using your CDs to optimal effect. A bad Shadow is going to die before any other tank and look bad doing it, but a great Shadow is going to survive situations that no other tank could.

Guardians are the reactive and resource management tanks. Their resource is both the most complex and least forgiving of all of the tanks. Until you learn exactly how, why, and when to play with your resource, you're gonna have a bad time of it. Their survivability is largely passive, though a decent enough portion of it relies in upon using Blade Storm on CD (and Riposte spamming) that they have an appreciable active component. A small reliance on active mitigation means that there is a decent skill ceiling, but not one as high as Shadows get. Unlike a bad Shadow, which is going to get threat and then die, a bad Guardian will simply lose threat all the time.
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wingzyeah
11.16.2012 , 01:26 AM | #4
So there is no best tank for fp/wb/ops? Maybe u can describe few minuses of each tanks?

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Kitru
11.16.2012 , 02:09 AM | #5
Quote: Originally Posted by wingzyeah View Post
So there is no best tank for fp/wb/ops? Maybe u can describe few minuses of each tanks?
All of the tanks are perfectly functional with no major gaps, aside from potential PvP discrepancies (VGs are generally viewed as the worst PvP tanks because of their lack of survivability CDs, lack of utility, and lackluster ability to deal with F/T attacks). If there are appreciable cons attached to each tank class when properly played, it generally breaks down into how I described them before:

VGs have no real glaring problems aside from the fact that there isn't much that they can do to eke out superior performance; the only difference between a decent VG and a bad VG is that the bad VG is going to bottom out their ammo and constantly drop off their Ion Screen stacks but there isn't really much difference between a decent VG and a great VG. Their one major weakness, if it can be called such in the confines of PvE tanking, is their lack of strong utility functionality. Guardians have stuns and slows aplenty, and Shadows have CC, stealth, stuns, slows, and more in their utility belt. VGs really just have their pull, their leap, and a couple short duration, ammo eating stuns (barring the selection of some of the very, very bad slow talents in their skill tree that almost no one actually takes, that I know of). In summation, their weakness is their primary strength: they're simple so they don't have the same breadth of tools that can allow a well played tank to do truly amazing things.

The primary weakness of Guardians, once you've learned to play one, is that they have the longest recharge on their CDs, oftentimes forcing the Guardian to go through a burst DPS phase without a CD because they already used their CDs or expect a more pressing need somewhere further down the line. In a 6.5 minute fight, you can expect to be able to use your survivability CDs 1-2 times each whereas, thanks to the shorter CDs, a VG or Shadow could expect to use it 2-4 times. This can become something of a liability when a screw up in the middle of the fight that forces the tank to burn a CD ends up wiping the group because the Guardian didn't have their CD up during a high incoming damage phase. They've also got the worst threat generation and damage of all the tanks, and they lack the much desired and often lauded pull that VGs and Shadows get (though Leap>Push>Leap accomplishes something similar though takes 3-4 times as long and isn't as simple to execute). It's also important to note that Guardians make the worst off tanks: a lot of their Focus generation is dependent on being attacked and they rely upon Riposte for a not-insubstantial portion of their damage (5-10%), which can only be used after successfully defending against an attack. As off tanks, they're not going to be attacked that often and end up doing a lot worse in the role than either Shadows or VGs.

The major weakness of Shadows, assuming they're played properly and fight knowledge is present, is their hp variance. Because of their self healing and reliance upon active mitigation mechanisms coupled with high defense/shield/abs, as opposed to the strong passive DR that Guardians and VGs have, the health bar for a Shadow is going to bounce around a *lot* more than than of the other tanks. Once you're used to it, it's just part of the scenery, but many inexperienced healers get frazzled by it and aren't able to cope with it effectively, either dumping lots of overhealing on the Shadow in a waste of resources or underhealing in a waste of Shadow. This selfsame reliance def/shield/abs as opposed to DR also makes Shadows the worst tanks for fights that revolve around a lot of F/T attacks that deal K/E damage (since they have the lowest K/E DR and F/T attacks ignore def/shield/abs; for F/T I/E fights, on the other hand, Shadows are actually the best because of their self heals, Resilience, and the fact that they have the highest I/E DR). Also, Shadows do poorly in fights with a lot of attacks being directed at them in a short interval because of their reliance upon Kinetic Ward, which only provides the 15/20% bonus Shield chance against 8 attacks every 12 seconds. In general, this on affects trash fights (wherein 4-5 enemies attack them all at once, quickly depleting the charges, often in the opening alpha strike), which don't really mean much to most tanks, but it matters against bosses and fight phases with very high attacks per second (TfB tentacles and Foreman Crusher are the two that stick out in my mind as the only real offenders).

All of the tank classes have their little weaknesses and the answer as to which has the least weaknesses depends upon the fights in question, the player in control of said tank, and the group that they're running with. The Shadow weaknesses can be addressed pretty easily with an experienced player and healer (the KW "problem" isn't a major issue and the hp variance is more of a healer perception problem that is best dealt with through experience anyways), and the VG problems only really rear their head when you're attempting to push the limits (since neither a lack of utility nor the presence of a comparatively low skill ceiling is really going to hurt the average tank). Even the Guardian inability to offtank very well doesn't mean much since it's not like you bring a tank around expecting them to offtank as an important function (the only fights in the current top tier of content that really require an explicit MT/OT setup as opposed to tanks swapping or working together are the puzzle fights of which there isn't really high demand on tanks in the first place). A good raid leader will tweak who is tanking what based on the weaknesses inherent in the classes, but player skill matters more, honestly. The relative weaknesses don't really mean all that much in the hands of a tank who is good at their class.
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Nortumberland
11.17.2012 , 08:17 AM | #6
Kitru mentioned everything amazingly clear. It depends on what do you expect from your tank. In my pov Vang is the least hectic and all-around-good tank. Though he lacks active cd's you can negate that by using active relic( DG ones are very good). On the other hand it's simple mechanic makes tanking a bit boring for me sometimes. Also, as Kitru mentioned, Vang is a bit weak in PvP due to lack of cc and defensive cd's. Guardian on the other hand is a bit too hectic sometimes. Especially if you are running ful defensive build, which is good for packs, but horrible for single target tanking. Along with that having several cd's doesn't mean guard is better than vang, It just means he has to know the fight very well to use them in time. I have the same problem as you do. I still can't decide between two of them. Guard scares me using hybrid build which makes my mind crazy. Vang makes me feel a bit more heal dependent than guard. Especially I'm interested in 2 things. 1) which tank requires less healing 2) which tank takes less damage overall. Since I'm horible with numbers, I expect a skilled person to clear this for me.

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Kitru
11.17.2012 , 12:00 PM | #7
Quote: Originally Posted by Nortumberland View Post
1) which tank requires less healing 2) which tank takes less damage overall.
For all intents and purposes, those 2 questions are functionally asking the same thing (which tank requires the least healing over the course of a fight), though there is a bit of a semantic differentiation. To answer them explicitly, Shadows require the least healing but take the most damage overall while Guardians simply take the least damage. The reason that Shadows take the most damage but require the least healing is because they pack a goodly portion of consistent self healing; without it factored in, they have the lowest mitigation, but, with it, they have the best (which means that the least amount of damage gets through to them that needs to be healed by outside sources). Guardians get around this by having an absorb barrier that simply prevents them from taking damage, though it operates in much the same way. In addition, Shadows also have the best CDs (as described by survivability contribution normalized by uptime), so, if they use them properly, they'll take even less damage compared to the other tanks.

It's also important to remember that "damage that needs to be healed" isn't the only important metric by which to gauge a tank, especially since the non-CD mitigation of each tank is within a 1% margin of error (Shadows push something like 77% mitigation w/ their self heals factored in, Guardians 76% with Blade Barrier, and VGs 75%). The other side of the coin is in the predictability of needed heals, i.e. how "bouncy" the hp pool tends to be. VGs have the most stable hp pool, thanks almost entirely to the fact that they have the highest K/E DR by a significant factor. No attack gets around DR and a vast majority of incoming damage is K/E, so, in pretty much every fight you're gonna see, VGs are going to have a more stable incoming damage profile. Guardians are marginally worse, thanks to their lower K/E DR, and Shadows have it outright worst. Guardians and Shadows, of course, make up for their lower K/E DR by having significantly higher Defense Chance, which means that, just as they're likely to get a string of hits that unluckily penetrates their mitigation chances, they're also just as likely to get a string of hits that gets completely ignored thanks to their high mitigation chances. It's a give and take, but it also means that they're less predictable overall.
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Nortumberland
11.18.2012 , 02:59 AM | #8
Thank you a lot, Kitru! Very good explonation.

P.S. What's your tank of choice and why? Just interested)

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Kitru
11.18.2012 , 10:03 AM | #9
Quote: Originally Posted by Nortumberland View Post
What's your tank of choice and why?
I've got all 3 tanks and play them all regularly, but my main (and thus preferred tank) is my Shadow. I like it so much because it requires I pay attention and learn fights and rewards me for it, not to mention that it has a great toolbox for pretty much everything a tank could desire. It's an active tank that isn't absurdly chaotic (which is how I feel about my Guardian tank).
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RendValor
11.18.2012 , 11:06 AM | #10
General consensus would lead you to believe that Guardians are easy to play and Shadows are hard to play, when in reality (and as someone who plays both) it's the other way around
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