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P2W is bad?


DarthOvertone's Avatar


DarthOvertone
11.14.2012 , 01:38 PM | #131
Quote: Originally Posted by DegreesOfFreedom View Post
My problem with this is - why do you have to pay in the first place? If gear equality is what you are after then why not just redesign the game based on that concept? Implementing this idea will make it look like bioware is very underhanded creating a self inflicted gear inequality just for people to pay to equalize it. I hope you understand where I'm getting at.
This is an interesting twist. However, gear progression is pretty common in PvP and MMOs with PvP. I don't think anyone would accuse BW of purposefully creating a gear gap to encourage the purchase of PvP gear through the store. Although, if the grinding for the gear became purposefully more difficult over time by design, I could see the argument gaining some plausibility.

This would be the case, especially in retrospect, as the initial gear grind has become progressively easier while the min/max gear grind has become more difficult. It's a slippery slope though, as Doomsday has identified. If BW does introduce items of this sort into the Store, while they may not be P2W initially, one can see how things could easily drift down that road with the wrong turn/decision.
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Zunayson's Avatar


Zunayson
11.14.2012 , 02:36 PM | #132
1. PvP here has no progression in PvE. Yes, let's grab our tionese gear and get facerolled in HM TfB until we get enough Sympathy Commendations to get our Hazmat Dread Guard gear. Occasionally, there may be an easy HM FP boss that we'll be on par with. Once I get my dread guard gear after about 4 months, I'll be able to be on par with the toughest, and faceroll through anything else.

The above is not true progression. Progression is greems playing HM FPS to PROGRESS to OPS to get Columi to be able to play things of the sort HM OPS... etc. Lv 1s getting to lv 2s. Being forced to play lv 2 content/ A level 50 playing lv 1 content does not progress. However, in swtor a wh player gets the exact same reward from out skilling a wh player and out gearing a recruit player.

2. Gear progression is NOT central to an RPG. Maybe some MMOs, but not RPGs. RPG Definition is a ROLE PLAYING GAME. All this pretty much means is to create your own character. Even basic RPGs from Dungeons and Dragons and Pokemon to complex Mass Effect and Dragon Age type things don't pin you high level content from low levels or vice versa (see above)! The difference between LV 10s in greens playing full BM 50s in pre 1.1 is indeed different from Recruit 50s playing full E/Wh 50s. However, there is still an imbalance.

People pre 1.1 whined for brackets because there was an imbalance. Their logic was that
Imbalance => Not fun, stupid, fix, etc.
The problem is, there is still an imbalance, so by the same logic the PvP gear needs fixing. Either from brackets or removal altogether. Brackets does basically the same thing (So long as you can make it so they can't change their gear in a wz), and actually makes it PROGRESSION. Since you will be playing A to get to B to get to C, instead of playing A B and C.

RPGs should be about strategically gearing up, not out-gearing your opponent. Big difference, there, and if you don't know it, it's the difference here:

Strategically gearing up:
Do I want X endurance and Y strength or X + 1 endurance and Y - 1 strength?
Out gearing:
Do I want X endurance and Y strength or X + 1 endurance and Y + 1 strength? Hmmm, no reason to take the former, it's worse all around!

It's like letting tanks have the same mainstat as DPS and heals, but still having more endurance. There is no trade off, it's simply better.
Quote: Originally Posted by Uber_the_Goober View Post
Bioware couldn't balance a sheet of plywood if it were laying [sic] on the ground.
Quote: Originally Posted by Aragost View Post
Make sure you take 3/3 in the "knowing how to play" box

The_Brick's Avatar


The_Brick
11.14.2012 , 02:54 PM | #133
Quote: Originally Posted by Zunayson View Post
1. PvP here has no progression in PvE. Yes, let's grab our tionese gear and get facerolled in HM TfB until we get enough Sympathy Commendations to get our Hazmat Dread Guard gear. Occasionally, there may be an easy HM FP boss that we'll be on par with. Once I get my dread guard gear after about 4 months, I'll be able to be on par with the toughest, and faceroll through anything else.

The above is not true progression. Progression is greems playing HM FPS to PROGRESS to OPS to get Columi to be able to play things of the sort HM OPS... etc. Lv 1s getting to lv 2s. Being forced to play lv 2 content/ A level 50 playing lv 1 content does not progress. However, in swtor a wh player gets the exact same reward from out skilling a wh player and out gearing a recruit player.

2. Gear progression is NOT central to an RPG. Maybe some MMOs, but not RPGs. RPG Definition is a ROLE PLAYING GAME. All this pretty much means is to create your own character. Even basic RPGs from Dungeons and Dragons and Pokemon to complex Mass Effect and Dragon Age type things don't pin you high level content from low levels or vice versa (see above)! The difference between LV 10s in greens playing full BM 50s in pre 1.1 is indeed different from Recruit 50s playing full E/Wh 50s. However, there is still an imbalance.

People pre 1.1 whined for brackets because there was an imbalance. Their logic was that
Imbalance => Not fun, stupid, fix, etc.
The problem is, there is still an imbalance, so by the same logic the PvP gear needs fixing. Either from brackets or removal altogether. Brackets does basically the same thing (So long as you can make it so they can't change their gear in a wz), and actually makes it PROGRESSION. Since you will be playing A to get to B to get to C, instead of playing A B and C.

RPGs should be about strategically gearing up, not out-gearing your opponent. Big difference, there, and if you don't know it, it's the difference here:

Strategically gearing up:
Do I want X endurance and Y strength or X + 1 endurance and Y - 1 strength?
Out gearing:
Do I want X endurance and Y strength or X + 1 endurance and Y + 1 strength? Hmmm, no reason to take the former, it's worse all around!

It's like letting tanks have the same mainstat as DPS and heals, but still having more endurance. There is no trade off, it's simply better.
It would somewhat fix the problem if they had level 50 brackets based on valor rank. The downside though would be longer queue waits, unless they implemented cross server WZ's. And it wouldn't have to be anything complicated, just level 50 valor rank 1-69 bracket, level 50 valor rank 70+ bracket and leave everything else essentially the same. People would still complain about how bad Recruit gear is, but at least they would only be going up against people in full Battlemaster as opposed to full War Hero.

stephenalandavie's Avatar


stephenalandavie
11.14.2012 , 02:58 PM | #134
Can someone please explain to me how this game has gone pay 2 win?


The armor available on the cash shop doesnt seem OP from what i have seen?

DaedalusV's Avatar


DaedalusV
11.14.2012 , 02:58 PM | #135
If they remove pvp gear (expertise) pve players will instagib pvp players unless of course you can grind the exact same gear in pvp that you can in pve. And of course you forget the two extra tiers of pve gear they implemented (iirc there's 4 endgame tiers for pve and 2 for pvp.)

Recruit doesn't count as a tier of itself. It's free and thus baseline gear.
"you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view."
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DaedalusV's Avatar


DaedalusV
11.14.2012 , 03:03 PM | #136
Quote: Originally Posted by The_Brick View Post
It would somewhat fix the problem if they had level 50 brackets based on valor rank. The downside though would be longer queue waits, unless they implemented cross server WZ's. And it wouldn't have to be anything complicated, just level 50 valor rank 1-69 bracket, level 50 valor rank 70+ bracket and leave everything else essentially the same. People would still complain about how bad Recruit gear is, but at least they would only be going up against people in full Battlemaster as opposed to full War Hero.
your solution is flawed.

I'll grind full wh gear on my main, ship it to my fresh lvl 50 with whom I never pvp'ed with = valor 0 guy running around in full warhero armourpieces. I would be min maxed wh ages before being forced to the high valor bracket.
"you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view."
Arwyn Sage Blitzkrieger Sentinel Sk'ye Guardian

Smashbrother's Avatar


Smashbrother
11.14.2012 , 03:16 PM | #137
Quote: Originally Posted by Zunayson View Post
2. Gear progression is NOT central to an RPG. Maybe some MMOs, but not RPGs. RPG Definition is a ROLE PLAYING GAME. All this pretty much means is to create your own character. Even basic RPGs from Dungeons and Dragons and Pokemon to complex Mass Effect and Dragon Age type things don't pin you high level content from low levels or vice versa (see above)! The difference between LV 10s in greens playing full BM 50s in pre 1.1 is indeed different from Recruit 50s playing full E/Wh 50s. However, there is still an imbalance.
Gear progression is not central to an RPG, but char progression is. And the easiest way to make char progression at max level is through gear.

When I play Starcraft 2, Street Fighter, or the other skill based games out there, I don't go on their forums and whine about how there's no leveling/gearing up for my characters. So I don't understand why people go to a RPG game's forum and whine about char progression.

Zunayson's Avatar


Zunayson
11.14.2012 , 03:31 PM | #138
Quote: Originally Posted by Smashbrother View Post
Gear progression is not central to an RPG, but char progression is. And the easiest way to make char progression at max level is through gear.

When I play Starcraft 2, Street Fighter, or the other skill based games out there, I don't go on their forums and whine about how there's no leveling/gearing up for my characters. So I don't understand why people go to a RPG game's forum and whine about char progression.
I'm complaining about the fact that there is little progression, first of all, because it take so long.

Secondly, I've already made my point. EVERY. SINGLE. GAME. I can think of (And you as well) excluding PvP has fair gear and/or character progression. Conclusion? PvP is ****ed up w/ gear. I don't see how you can even possibly begin to think about refuting this obvious fact.
Quote: Originally Posted by Uber_the_Goober View Post
Bioware couldn't balance a sheet of plywood if it were laying [sic] on the ground.
Quote: Originally Posted by Aragost View Post
Make sure you take 3/3 in the "knowing how to play" box

ACTroyan's Avatar


ACTroyan
11.14.2012 , 03:33 PM | #139
OP is incoherrent . P/G2W is lame find other methods to motivate players (pets, armor looks, Titles, speeders, color xtals) moving on

Smashbrother's Avatar


Smashbrother
11.14.2012 , 03:34 PM | #140
Quote: Originally Posted by Zunayson View Post
I'm complaining about the fact that there is little progression, first of all, because it take so long.

Secondly, I've already made my point. EVERY. SINGLE. GAME. I can think of (And you as well) excluding PvP has fair gear and/or character progression. Conclusion? PvP is ****ed up w/ gear. I don't see how you can even possibly begin to think about refuting this obvious fact.
Look I've got no problems introducing matchmaking based on gear in this game, but in order to do that we'd need more players and x-serve Qs. Until then, we have to suck it up.

Or BW can allow us to purchase gear on all our alts once we've unlocked it with our main. That works too.