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Debunking false ideas about Mara/Sents in PVP

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Debunking false ideas about Mara/Sents in PVP

Helig's Avatar


Helig
11.13.2012 , 01:52 AM | #61
Quote: Originally Posted by aeterno View Post
And that's your mistake right there.

Lowest common denominator is mmo king.
Ironically Marauders can be called relatively balanced on high levels of play.

They suffer from the Retribution Paladin syndrome that plagued WoW from Vanilla. This class\spec had relatively simple ways of doing heavy frontloaded damage, had a 6 second stun on a fairly accessible cooldown, and cooldowns that provided immunity to movement-imparing effects, they had a 12-sec full immunity shield, and they had the ability to heal themselves.

Even the dumbest, most talentless RetNoob had a very good chance against the "lowest common denominator" player of another class. But it could easily be disassembled by a player who knows what they're doing. Marauder cooldowns do constitute a similar "foolproof". The difference is, however, that to learn to fight RetPaladin, you didn't need a lot of effort. With a Marauder, however, the best way is to play it yourself.
"I'm not *giving* him cake, I'm *assaulting* him with cake!" - Pinkamena Diane Pie

Masarko's Avatar


Masarko
11.13.2012 , 03:14 AM | #62
Quote: Originally Posted by Phasersablaze View Post
Personally if I game design were left up to me I would do two things. First change resolve so that a stun would give you 50% resolve and a snare would give you 25% resolve. The I would make it so that full resolve lasted 15 seconds. I would also double the cooldown on every stun ability and make our stun breakers give us stun immunity for 5 seconds.
No.

Thats the dumbest idea ever, seriously. Certain classes are dependent on controlling their enemy for maximum output, and with that idea everyone might aswell quit and make a Warrior

aeterno's Avatar


aeterno
11.13.2012 , 05:09 AM | #63
Quote: Originally Posted by Phasersablaze View Post
That doesn't make sense at all. You think things should be balanced by the worst player of the class? How do you decide how bad someone is? There is absolutely no way to balance anything if you go off some subjective idea.

No. What you are suggesting is absolutely preposterous. The only way to balance classes is off their maximum potential. That's the only way judge how powerful each ability is. Since you can't get any better than maximum potential, you can use each classes maximum potential to judge how each one is in relation to eachother.

Do you really not understand this simple concept? This is like MMOs 101 day one class one stuff. You know like Basic MMO knowledge for 100 Alex. I know SWTOR is incredibly simple and easy to play, but I expect a little more from people as far as general knowledge of mechanics and balancing. So were you one of those people that made it all the way to 50 before figuring out what an advanced class is???
Not the worst player but the average. That's how it's always been done and will continue to be done.

There is a reason maras never got the nerfbat and never will, it's cos 90% of the players playing them suck to high heaven. And as long as game metrics doesn't have the class stick out as a sore thumb in the big picture it won't get the bat, despite what theory crafting says about it's potential.

It's the reverse of what happened with sages and sorcs. The really good folks new it was due a tone down but the masses kicked up a fuss about 1.2 and contributed towards the start of the PR slide TOR has been on ever since.

Hence why no matter how many times Johnny L33tplayer hands you your toosh on a silver platter, devs aren't going to nerf the class that sees 9 out of 10 of Johnnys peers putting in distinctly average displays. It's a product for the masses and a business.

Not to mention the fact balance issues are 80% perception. Atm the focus spec is said to cause imbalance in WZs, yea well, organize 3 of any class to chain or simultaneously use their big hitters and you got the same imbalance. Bloody gunnery spec is OP when 3 troopers start hammering you at once.

DariusCalera's Avatar


DariusCalera
11.13.2012 , 05:37 AM | #64
Quote: Originally Posted by aeterno View Post
Not to mention the fact balance issues are 80% perception. Atm the focus spec is said to cause imbalance in WZs, yea well, organize 3 of any class to chain or simultaneously use their big hitters and you got the same imbalance. Bloody gunnery spec is OP when 3 troopers start hammering you at once.
I've yet to see a trooper ability that allows you to autocrit for 5K damage on 5 enemies.

Their hard hitting abilities also have a relatively long ramp up time, are channeled,or, in the case of their AOE abilities, someone can just run out of the AOE.

Helig's Avatar


Helig
11.13.2012 , 06:03 AM | #65
Quote: Originally Posted by DariusCalera View Post
I've yet to see a trooper ability that allows you to autocrit for 5K damage on 5 enemies.
Marauders and Sents also can't pull you from across the map into their and hit you for over 10k in 2 GCDs. Class balance isn't about single skills, it's about overall capabilities of the class.

Stop getting hung up on Smash. It requires setup and serious exposure. Problem with Marauders, if there's any, lies in their defensive cooldowns and their remarkable chainability.
"I'm not *giving* him cake, I'm *assaulting* him with cake!" - Pinkamena Diane Pie

GrandMike's Avatar


GrandMike
11.13.2012 , 06:35 AM | #66
Quote: Originally Posted by Vacarius View Post
Keep it civil mate, he put forward a reasonable argument, no need for insults.

What you're failing to grasp here is that we don't run the game. Bioware does, and they need to make money. Metrics (collections of data from every player in the game) determine class balance, as Bioware wants to keep people playing. He's not supporting the system (you missed his initial sarcasm), merely stating it how it is. In our ideal world, your system would determine balance (note that you need metrics to determine this too...). However, the vast majority of pvpers (who admittedly aren't brilliant) prefer metrics.
No, in our world system he wants is called BALANCE and what BW does is called CATERING to BADS.

Thats why PvP in SWTOR will always suck.

Game was more balanced at launch and their "balancing" was laughed at (operatives rofl marauders rofl).

Anyway, they treat PvP as they do their "space game", they dont give a damn about it, they dont have enough people any more to care about it (they are now understaffed anyway) and if you want good PvP game you certanly WONT play SWTOR (or any gear based "we cater to bads" game, though its more obvious in SWTOR because they admitted it publicly)

Vacarius's Avatar


Vacarius
11.13.2012 , 07:25 AM | #67
Quote: Originally Posted by GrandMike View Post
No, in our world system he wants is called BALANCE and what BW does is called CATERING to BADS.

Thats why PvP in SWTOR will always suck.

Game was more balanced at launch and their "balancing" was laughed at (operatives rofl marauders rofl).
I don't disagree with you on the issue of balancing, but remember that SWTOR is a business, and catering to a niche market (hardcore pvpers) over everyone else is not profitable. They were stating facts and he irrationally insulted them for doing so, that was why I responded.

I disagree that pvp in swtor sucks and will always do so. If you play one of the viable classes (or the others really well) pvp can be really fun. The nature of mmos means concerns will be fixed and new ones created, just how it is. Once they work out how to make the engine viable for massive pvp battles, we should have an excellent game.
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MusicRider's Avatar


MusicRider
11.13.2012 , 07:37 AM | #68
Quote: Originally Posted by Phasersablaze View Post
2nd leap is specced into and is only 15m. Point taken.
Dude twice you are wrong. It's actually 10 meters and this is only if you are specced focus/rage. Are you sure you have a sentinel and you know the game?

GrandMike's Avatar


GrandMike
11.13.2012 , 07:46 AM | #69
Quote: Originally Posted by Vacarius View Post
I don't disagree with you on the issue of balancing, but remember that SWTOR is a business, and catering to a niche market (hardcore pvpers) over everyone else is not profitable. They were stating facts and he irrationally insulted them for doing so, that was why I responded.
Then call all those bads that say its balanced exactly what they are - BADS

Quote: Originally Posted by Vacarius View Post
If you play one of the viable classes
This is pure suck in itself, no matter how you spin it.

Quote: Originally Posted by Vacarius View Post
Once they work out how to make the engine viable for massive pvp battles, we should have an excellent game.
And this will never be sorted out, they hadnt manage to sort it out in 7 years with (basically) unlimited budget, what kind of argument do you have that they will sort it out understaffed and on very limited budget? Ilum was a joke in both iterations and with those problems on top of it it was one of more epic fails in MMO history. Funny that they dont talk about it at all any more. Its slated as pretty eveything else "we would like to have it, but not on the radar right now".

TridusSWTOR's Avatar


TridusSWTOR
11.13.2012 , 08:05 AM | #70
Marauders got the best defensive CD's in the game, plus stealth, plus healing, plus highest damage output in the game.