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Debunking false ideas about Mara/Sents in PVP

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Debunking false ideas about Mara/Sents in PVP

Phasersablaze's Avatar


Phasersablaze
11.12.2012 , 11:00 AM | #1
Instead of just ranting at the terrible logic being used on the forums, I decided to write out my thoughts in an organized manner:

#1) Tanks have better defensive cool-downs. Do you see any Marauders tanking bosses?

Answer: PVE enviroments consist of constant large attacks by boss mobs. In a raid, the tank takes so much damage that his defensive statistics make him a better choice than a marauder. Obviously a tank with better defensive stats is a better choice to survive the millions of incoming damage tanks are healed through in a raid night. A PVP environment is completely different; consisting of short bursty encounters. It is these short bursty encounters that make Undying Rage/GBTF the most powerful Cool-down in PVP.

#2) Undying Rage/GBTF really isn't that powerful because you can be stunned for the duration, and Force Shroud is better.

Answer: The power of defensive cool-downs and stuns are two completely different subjects. The truth is that you can be stunned during the duration of EVERY defensive cooldown besides Force Shroud. The only difference is that the Marauder will STILL BE ALIVE at the end while everyone else won't be; including the Sin who hit FS at low HP. Yes, everything is situational, but 90% of the time I would rather be alive for 4 more seconds in PVP. That's 4 more seconds for my healer to heal me, 4 more seconds to run the ball to the goal, 4 more seconds to kill my opponent before he kills me, 4 more seconds to stop a cap while team-mates catch up. And yes, Even the Sin who used FS is going to be dead, because everyone who is attentive enough to notice that the Sin is glowing yellow will use white damge attacks to finish him off. UR/GBTF is the only cool-down in the game that has essentially no counter. Sure you can stun the marauder...but there is 0 way to kill him no matter what attack you use. That's broken imo.

#3) Mele range attacks are a dissadvantage to the class.

Answer: Not in SWTOR. There are several reasons why:
a) Incredible mobility - Up to 2 leaps available which are effectively two ranged interrupts. Also, those interrupts are true interrupts. The person being lept to is stunned the instant the marauder hits his ability...before his feet even leave the ground to leap to you. Predation. 4 second vanish used as a gap closer.
b) The close quarters of objective based PVP maps nullifies ranged advantage. Even maps like Huttbal where range should have an advantage are useless. in fact its the MELE who have the advanatage because of their leaps.

#4) Marauder dps is about on par with other DPS. (Rage spec aside, which any intelligent person knows is significantly OP)

Answer: Marauders possess the unique ability to dish out high damage, while at the same time shutting the other person down. Unlike other DPS classes who have to basically use their one interrupt and maybe 2 stuns as skillfully as they can while they DPS race you down to 0 health, Marauders just shut people down simmilar to an operative coming out of stealth to attack. The ammount of Mez/Stun, and interrupts/Knockdowns combined with their 4 defensive discs makes them incredible PVP contenders. They may not have the absolute highest burst in the game, but it doesn't matter that your burst ability is 9 out of 10 when you can destroy 50% of the other guy's effectiveness.

***********************************************

My first Character was a Mercenary. I have since lvled an Assasin, a PT, and a Sentinel. My most played character is my Mercenary; who has BIS gear and 96 Valor. Next would by my Sin at 70 valor and mostly WH gear. I feel like I have a decent grasp of the PVP environment and I feel like there is a lot of bias thought towards balance about Marauders; who I consider to be the best PVP class in the game when played correctly. I realize that most people who PVP are terrible at playing their character, but I think the standard for balance should be based upon the potential of the class when played optimally, not the average faceroller. This is what I mean when I say Marauders are the best PVP class. The ability of a skilled Marauder to affect the outcome of a WZ is a lot higher than several other classes; even played to their fullest potential.

Phaser
The Shadowlands

Pyrinoos's Avatar


Pyrinoos
11.12.2012 , 11:12 AM | #2
I'm sorry but IMO undying rage isn't even maras best defensive cooldown much less the best in the game.
Cloak of pain just doesn't get noticed....

Also check your post no Mara has two 30 m leaps....

As to your first point this is because maras have the best cooldowns in PVE of non tanks, but tank stats don't work in pvp. How do u suggest maintaining their ability to operate in pve as a melee dps where melee is often at a disadvantage?

And as an aside surely you've realized that maras hard counter your main class, mercenary, but other classes can hard counter maras, ie snipers.
<Silent Council> Lamech - Assassin | A'chan - Mercenary
<Berserk> Zillah - PT | Koráh - Sniper
<Project Mayhem> Lamęch - Mara | Sethur - Op | Amalek - Jugg
Slade legacy on The Ebon Hawk

Phasersablaze's Avatar


Phasersablaze
11.12.2012 , 11:21 AM | #3
Quote: Originally Posted by Pyrinoos View Post
I'm sorry but IMO undying rage isn't even maras best defensive cooldown much less the best in the game.
Cloak of pain just doesn't get noticed....

Also check your post no Mara has two 30 m leaps....

As to your first point this is because maras have the best cooldowns in PVE of non tanks, but tank stats don't work in pvp. How do u suggest maintaining their ability to operate in pve as a melee dps where melee is often at a disadvantage?

And as an aside surely you've realized that maras hard counter your main class, mercenary, but other classes can hard counter maras, ie snipers.
2nd leap is specced into and is only 10m. Point taken.

I am also and active raider. (I have all dread guard optimised gear besides 1 armoring and have raided from day 1 - now; our guild being 5/5 HM TFB) Good marauders generally don't have a problem keeping up with me. In fact, the one I am raiding with now is usually only 1-2% behind me if not a tad ahead. I don't understand this mele disadvantage that you speak of. Even on the Tron boss where you would think range would have the advantage; they don't. Mele can leap to the cores just as fast as ranged can target them from 30m.

Like I said: there is no such thing as a ranged advantage in SWTOR.

Exgrunt's Avatar


Exgrunt
11.12.2012 , 11:24 AM | #4
If people would just learn when to use their stuns instead of just throwing them all away and giving me (Carnage Spec) full resolve then I would be effectively shutdown. If you stun me when i hit gore you have effectively killed my rotation. If you stun me when I hit Undying rage ,the smart thing would be to use a break on damage or just tell your team not to attack, you have effectively caused me to waste a gcd, the rest of my defensive cooldowns are probably not ready yet and I'm now a sitting duck.
Have fun Kill pubs

Phasersablaze's Avatar


Phasersablaze
11.12.2012 , 11:28 AM | #5
Quote: Originally Posted by Exgrunt View Post
If people would just learn when to use their stuns instead of just throwing them all away and giving me (Carnage Spec) full resolve then I would be effectively shutdown. If you stun me when i hit gore you have effectively killed my rotation. If you stun me when I hit Undying rage ,the smart thing would be to use a break on damage or just tell your team not to attack, you have effectively caused me to waste a gcd, the rest of my defensive cooldowns are probably not ready yet and I'm now a sitting duck.
The stun-happy environment is a different matter all-together. Also, even if I am smart and save my stun for the right time I'm probably still out of luck because my team mates have given you full resolve.

Don't get me wrong, I know how to use my stun, and I'm not saying Marauders are god-mode classes that can't be countered. I AM saying however, that marauders have the most powerful tools available to them than any other PVP class.

Crawelc's Avatar


Crawelc
11.12.2012 , 11:30 AM | #6
Do NOT waste your breath on these qq threads. Bioware knows that we are exactly where we need to be in pvp/pve. While there are other classes that need to be brought up a bit, we are no where near as far ahead as these people would have you believe. Every tool we have is vital for us to be able to do our job which is to deal damage. Let the QQ pile to the sky. This is the last nerf mara/sent thread I will ever click on.
Imprimis <Fight><Redemption><Conquest>
All Imprimis All the time.

Exgrunt's Avatar


Exgrunt
11.12.2012 , 11:39 AM | #7
Yes and they are needed. We are a melee non-stealth(the stealth we get IMO is is usless unless spec in carnage tree which allows it to break roots) that in order to be effective is pretty much always right in the middle of the fight. I'm always surrounded by most of the enemy team( I find that fun btw even though I know I'm gonna lose) and yes I always die at some point, sometimes without getting a kill, sometimes after killing most of them. None of the defensive cooldowns we have give us anything less than what is needed to be a viable class.
Have fun Kill pubs

Pyrinoos's Avatar


Pyrinoos
11.12.2012 , 11:41 AM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by Phasersablaze View Post
2nd leap is specced into and is only 15m. Point taken.

I am also and active raider. (I have all dread guard optimised gear besides 1 armoring and have raided from day 1 - now; our guild being 5/5 HM TFB) Good marauders generally don't have a problem keeping up with me. In fact, the one I am raiding with now is usually only 1-2% behind me if not a tad ahead. I don't understand this mele disadvantage that you speak of. Even on the Tron boss where you would think range would have the advantage; they don't. Mele can leap to the cores just as fast as ranged can target them from 30m.

Like I said: there is no such thing as a ranged advantage in SWTOR.
Point taken, but I really wasn't talking about being able to dish damage in an op, but that often it seems the fights have a component that causes melee to take more damage. From gharjs pounce to jarg to all the junk flying out of both ends of karragga, to toth and zorn, to the blue circles that often are under the boss on TFB kephess...
Now all these things are avoidable thru good solid tactics and some experience/common sense but IMO there do seem to be more damaging mechanics close to bosses than far away. Obviously they are trying to fix these with fights like the firebrand and stormcaller, and operator ix in order to balance it out.

By the way thanks for being civil.
<Silent Council> Lamech - Assassin | A'chan - Mercenary
<Berserk> Zillah - PT | Koráh - Sniper
<Project Mayhem> Lamęch - Mara | Sethur - Op | Amalek - Jugg
Slade legacy on The Ebon Hawk

Helig's Avatar


Helig
11.12.2012 , 12:03 PM | #9
Quote: Originally Posted by Phasersablaze View Post
2nd leap is specced into and is only 15m. Point taken.

I am also and active raider. (I have all dread guard optimised gear besides 1 armoring and have raided from day 1 - now; our guild being 5/5 HM TFB) Good marauders generally don't have a problem keeping up with me. In fact, the one I am raiding with now is usually only 1-2% behind me if not a tad ahead. I don't understand this mele disadvantage that you speak of. Even on the Tron boss where you would think range would have the advantage; they don't. Mele can leap to the cores just as fast as ranged can target them from 30m.

Like I said: there is no such thing as a ranged advantage in SWTOR.
Obliterate is 10 meters, and it does not interrupt - only immobilize.

As for "no such thing as ranged advantage" - yes there is, and it can be capitalized upon. There's also positional advantage, which I fully execute when running my Sniper (MM), Gunslinger (Engi\Engi hybrid) and Sage (bubblestun hybrid) in PvP. There are also some Ops fights that are distinctly more ranged-friendly than melee-friendly.

It's not black and white. Far from it.
"I'm not *giving* him cake, I'm *assaulting* him with cake!" - Pinkamena Diane Pie

Phasersablaze's Avatar


Phasersablaze
11.12.2012 , 12:21 PM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by Pyrinoos View Post
Point taken, but I really wasn't talking about being able to dish damage in an op, but that often it seems the fights have a component that causes melee to take more damage. From gharjs pounce to jarg to all the junk flying out of both ends of karragga, to toth and zorn, to the blue circles that often are under the boss on TFB kephess...
Now all these things are avoidable thru good solid tactics and some experience/common sense but IMO there do seem to be more damaging mechanics close to bosses than far away. Obviously they are trying to fix these with fights like the firebrand and stormcaller, and operator ix in order to balance it out.

By the way thanks for being civil.
No problem. And please understand that this is NOT a qq nerf thread like some have already said. With the exception of the rage smash spec, I like marauders where they are right now. I think destroying the tools they have would just make the class unfun to play.

The problem as I see it is that some classes DONT HAVE counters for anyone. Like you said snipers are in a pretty good place. Op/Sins have stealth advantage and good burst. PT's have the best burst in the game.

Personally if I game design were left up to me I would do two things. First change resolve so that a stun would give you 50% resolve and a snare would give you 25% resolve. The I would make it so that full resolve lasted 15 seconds. I would also double the cooldown on every stun ability and make our stun breakers give us stun immunity for 5 seconds.

The second thing I would do is increase the toolbox of Mercenaries. They just don't counter anybody and are not very good at anything in particular. That's dumb imo.

Of course damage tweaks need to be done here and there, but I see the big problem has to do with the previous two points.

So yeah, definitely not calling for Mara nerfs, but I think people need to recognize how powerful marauders tools are before they will be open to giving other classes powerful tools as well.