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How is tactics?

Belly's Avatar


Belly
11.10.2012 , 05:24 PM | #1
It's alt-making time, and i've been curious about Vanguards. From what I gather at the qq...errr, pvp forums, Assault is the spec of choice for DPS Vanguards. But, I like to go for the "underdog" specs. I've read through the skill trees and Tactics looks like it has some pretty decent abilities. How does Tactics perform once you get into the higher levels? Is it comparable to assault? Or am I just wasting a spot on the team?
Larcen 50(ish) Scoundrel Scrapper/Sawbones "They see me rollin...they hatin. They whining and sayin that I need some nerfin"
The Progenitor
And loads and loads of alts

hallucigenocide's Avatar


hallucigenocide
11.10.2012 , 05:39 PM | #2
it depends... in capable hands it can be extremely good..
it's more of a situational specc

AS is pretty straight forward.. you run in and nuke the crap out of evereything

tactics is more about setting things up

Belly's Avatar


Belly
11.10.2012 , 05:50 PM | #3
Quote: Originally Posted by hallucigenocide View Post
it depends... in capable hands it can be extremely good..
it's more of a situational specc

AS is pretty straight forward.. you run in and nuke the crap out of evereything

tactics is more about setting things up
Hmmm, that sounds more my style, I like the idea of having to think a little bit. Thanks for the reply
Larcen 50(ish) Scoundrel Scrapper/Sawbones "They see me rollin...they hatin. They whining and sayin that I need some nerfin"
The Progenitor
And loads and loads of alts

Berika's Avatar


Berika
11.10.2012 , 07:19 PM | #4
Quote: Originally Posted by hallucigenocide View Post
it depends... in capable hands it can be extremely good..
it's more of a situational specc

AS is pretty straight forward.. you run in and nuke the crap out of evereything

tactics is more about setting things up
"Setting up" is a positioning and occasionally a timing issue to ensure the mob(s)/player(s) are going to be struck by Tactics main attack, the Pulse Generator stacked Pulse Cannon. Very easy PVE. A little more difficult PVP.
Do unto others before they do unto you

DarthTimmah's Avatar


DarthTimmah
11.14.2012 , 11:10 AM | #5
I am also starting a Vanguard trooper as I just can't seem to get into my commando. I have a 50 Powertech Pyro and don't want to the exact same class. From what I can see the Tactics tree has some good utility in it especially in a pvp environment (passive speed boost and activated speed boost / snare removal). This spec seems to be all about getting in really close, compared to trying to kite melee in the dead zone with assault / pyro. With the possibility of the AoE damage reduction how does this work in reality? Thoughts?

bvlvt's Avatar


bvlvt
11.14.2012 , 05:44 PM | #6
Here is my personal experience (a little rant/vent included) with the Tactics tree - feel free to disagree:

The spec is FUN to play.

I'm not really into PvE stuff, however during SM Flashpoints (after getting Pulse Generator) or daily missions/Heroics it feels OK damage-wise. Hold the Line is pretty useful around bosses.

I think Assault is better for leveling at least before you can put 2 points in PG.

Tactics spec is not Rated-WZ material by any means. There are melee characters with similar or better utilities and much better survivability. Proper positioning is an absolute must, but since you have to be close to your target(s) there isn't much chance to stay out of sight.

The spec is not bursty either, not even if you have 3 stacks of PG with Explosive Surge before entering combat.

A major problem with the PvP damage (imho) is the Pulse Cannon itself - both single target and AoE dmg (obviously AoE much more) requires PC to be used frequently; a 3 sec channeled skill with loud noise + lightning & smoke everywhere - enough said.
If you are attacking a high priority target (healer/ball carrier), or simply a decent player, you *will be stunned/mezzed* right after you started channeling it. Not to mention if you want the whole PC to land on your target(s) you have to start it from close which often ends up in: A) melee opponents burst you into oblivion - or - B) bubblestunned -or - often both.

I have my personal doubts about the PC's damage too; granted my gear is far from good: augmented MH, OH WH, partly augmented BM in the other slots. Getting more than 2k crit per each tick with 3 stack of PG is very rare. I hope it will get better with better and optimized gear, but for now it's pretty meh.

By the way i call the HtL visual effect the "STUN ME!!!1!1!!" sign in PvP. However, it is still a nice tool to remove all roots and snares (regardless of their type or number, which is cool).
On a side note: it boosts the in-combat speed only, unlike the Force Speed of Jedi Consulars.

@DarthTimmah: Tactics spec is all about trying to kite melee in the dead zone too, but instead of one melee skill (Stock Strike) you have to use two (SS&Gut). Truth be told it's easier for Tactics with HtL and Battlefield Training (if you chose to pick it up) than for Assault without them.

MonsAlpha's Avatar


MonsAlpha
11.16.2012 , 01:57 AM | #7
Quote: Originally Posted by Belly View Post
It's alt-making time, and i've been curious about Vanguards. From what I gather at the qq...errr, pvp forums, Assault is the spec of choice for DPS Vanguards. But, I like to go for the "underdog" specs. I've read through the skill trees and Tactics looks like it has some pretty decent abilities. How does Tactics perform once you get into the higher levels? Is it comparable to assault? Or am I just wasting a spot on the team?
The funny part is that it's not qq. On my Powertech I outdamage every person in our Ops group for raids as well as get consistent top damage. The abilities I use you ask? Flame Burst, Rail Shot, Rocket Punch. That's it. There's seriously no point in using any other abilities because they generate too much heat when I'm spamming Flame Burst . There's literally no reason to play anything other than Pyrotech (Assault), unless of course you're a tank.
Kalenaa
<The Crushers>

Theagg's Avatar


Theagg
11.17.2012 , 07:18 AM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by bvlvt View Post
Here is my personal experience (a little rant/vent included) with the Tactics tree - feel free to disagree:

The spec is FUN to play.

I'm not really into PvE stuff, however during SM Flashpoints (after getting Pulse Generator) or daily missions/Heroics it feels OK damage-wise. Hold the Line is pretty useful around bosses.

I think Assault is better for leveling at least before you can put 2 points in PG.

Tactics spec is not Rated-WZ material by any means. There are melee characters with similar or better utilities and much better survivability. Proper positioning is an absolute must, but since you have to be close to your target(s) there isn't much chance to stay out of sight.

The spec is not bursty either, not even if you have 3 stacks of PG with Explosive Surge before entering combat.

A major problem with the PvP damage (imho) is the Pulse Cannon itself - both single target and AoE dmg (obviously AoE much more) requires PC to be used frequently; a 3 sec channeled skill with loud noise + lightning & smoke everywhere - enough said.
If you are attacking a high priority target (healer/ball carrier), or simply a decent player, you *will be stunned/mezzed* right after you started channeling it. Not to mention if you want the whole PC to land on your target(s) you have to start it from close which often ends up in: A) melee opponents burst you into oblivion - or - B) bubblestunned -or - often both.

I have my personal doubts about the PC's damage too; granted my gear is far from good: augmented MH, OH WH, partly augmented BM in the other slots. Getting more than 2k crit per each tick with 3 stack of PG is very rare. I hope it will get better with better and optimized gear, but for now it's pretty meh.

By the way i call the HtL visual effect the "STUN ME!!!1!1!!" sign in PvP. However, it is still a nice tool to remove all roots and snares (regardless of their type or number, which is cool).
On a side note: it boosts the in-combat speed only, unlike the Force Speed of Jedi Consulars.

@DarthTimmah: Tactics spec is all about trying to kite melee in the dead zone too, but instead of one melee skill (Stock Strike) you have to use two (SS&Gut). Truth be told it's easier for Tactics with HtL and Battlefield Training (if you chose to pick it up) than for Assault without them.
Pretty much my feelings too. Tactics is fun, you are at least not one of the other 99% of Vanguard builds to be found in warzones. As Tactics then you are a rarity, for what that's worth

But yes, Pulse Cannon with Pulse Generator, even at 3 stacks like you say can really be underwhelming. Even with better gear it remains so (I'm Elite War Hero in both main and offhand and pretty much War Hero in all other slots) especially against fairly equally geared opponents. Against these kinds of opponents, if they can be kept in the cone for the duration, I'm hitting at an average of 2.2k per tick (if the tick crits), and around 1.2k per tick if it doesn't

So they don't melt away, there is no burst and the 70% slow is nowhere near as effective as you would hope it could be. It certainly doesn't take much for opponents to move out of that 10m cone to negate that effect, even when slowed. Comparing it as a slow to other high value slows from other classes that stick to you wherever you move, it's a bit weak to be honest.

An Assault specced Vanguard will almost always outperform you when it comes to damage and with far less effort. Examples, in the same warzone with me running Tactics and a fellow guild member running Assault, my highest single damage on a target was about 3.8k, his was near to 5k. And damage overall was an extra 60% in favour of the Assault specced player.

This partly reflects what you also mention, the problems with keeping that Pulse Cannon on target with either yourself getting stunned, mezzed or knocked back during its cast, or opponents just relatively easily walking out of the effect cone before it's been fully channeled.

One thing I would recommend though is that if you do run Tactics, then run it with Plasma Cell and not High Energy Cell. Put at least two points into Ionized Ignition in the Assault tree when doing this and you will do far more damage than if you run with the High Energy Cell (the one supposedly best suited for the Tactics tree.)