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An in-depth look at: The Mandalorian Wars

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
An in-depth look at: The Mandalorian Wars

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
11.09.2012 , 04:46 PM | #71
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Yes she does, but when she speaks the truth you can tell, and if you can't tell just ask yourself - what could she gain from this by lying? What do you mean by the second part? (Are you suggesting that she 'lies' unintentionally, but passes it off as truth because she had such strong belief in her judgement?)


Hmmm, I agree. I just find it difficult to get my head around Revan turning against the Republic for little reason. But if he viewed the Council as weak, he would have reason too. (I believe they also pushed him to the dark side by pushing out i.e. refusing to listen/understand him. Zez-Kai Ell later admitted as much about Meetra)
The thing about Kreia is that she lies, but you can tell what is the truth. There are ways to sort out truths and lies.

That's not really what I meant. Maybe I worded it wrong. She believes everything that she says, lies or no, and forcefully tries to educate people on her views. She believes everything she says, which makes her dangerous.

We also have to remember that the Dark Side twists the views of those it corrupts. Even the greatest of heroes and most devout followers of the Jedi way could become a person that hates everything he once stood for. Revan was finally turned at Malachor, a planet of immense Dark Side energies. The Dark Side presence greatly affected his mind and twisted his will, enhancing the Darkness already manifesting within him.

Is Malachor's Dark Energies the reason for his fall? Yes. I believe that he could have been turned back if he hadn't gone to look for the Sith Empire. Once he found the Star Forge, it became nigh irreversible.
Added Chapter 66 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
11.09.2012 , 04:46 PM | #72
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
You bring up an interesting point. One that I hadn't thought of until after writing that post.

I think bloodlust may have been the wrong word as I look back on it. The Sith have a bloodlust. The Mandalorians were more of a thrill of the battle type. The Jedi pick up on that and, some not all, fall into it. Once that happens, the fall starts and increased exposure to it will result in a fall to the Dark Side unless a wise Jedi Master were to intervene.

As to Jedi fighting Sith. The Jedi are trained to resist the emotions of the Sith. Specifically the Dark ones. When fighting Sith, the Jedi focus the Light to combat the darkness. Calm serenity versus pure aggression.

Hang on! I just thought of something. So when the Jedi fight, they open their minds up to the thoughts, intentions and actions of those around them. This allows them to maneuver around the battle, gracefully dodging blaster fire. This also allows them to pick up on the emotions of their enemies. When they fight Sith, the close their minds off to the emotions of the Sith, acting on instinct.

As to the clones. The Jedi didn't pick up on the emotions of their clone allies. It was unnecessary. This is also one of the reasons that the Jedi were so systematically wiped out by the clones. They didn't attack them with emotion, it was just an order.
You make some good points, but I don't think many Jedi began falling to the dark side through the course of the Mandalorian Wars. From what I gather from KOTOR 1 and KOTOR 2 it was the Battle of Malachor that broke most of the Jedi and turned them to the dark side. And yes, you guessed it, Zez-Kai Ell my favourite of my least favourite Jedi Council supports me on this.
Quote:
I, too, lost a Padawan on Malachor. Not to the battle, but to the alternative - to the teachings that Revan brought from the Unknown Regions
I think it was the events of Malachor and the fanaticism the Revanchists had to their leader and therefore devotion to his new teachings if what led to Jedi falling to the dark side. Revan and Malak where the only ones really affected by the events of the war.

mefit's Avatar


mefit
11.09.2012 , 04:49 PM | #73
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
Let me ask you all a few questions.

Do you feel Revan was right to go to war?
Do you think his actions during the war were right?
1 Yes , but he was not mentally strong enough to control his emotions .
2 I feel the way the story plays out they make it seem like he had no choice , it was a endgame move that seemed to have more badside effects then he thought .
Again , just like he was shown in Foundry ..........he just seems to not be able to control his Emotions.
Give a Man a Mask and he'll become his true self

MasterMe's Avatar


MasterMe
11.09.2012 , 04:50 PM | #74
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Yes, No. The principle was right, the Jedi Council had effectively failed (as in they failed to act on their findings/come up with a plausible and tangible strategy) So Revan felt he had no choice - seeing as the Republic were winning the war I can absolutely 100% see why he rushed to its defence.

However, perhaps he was wrong in certain ways. For example it is not the Jedi way to rush into battle without meditating on the enemy first - thats reckless and foolhardy. But as I was writing this it got me thinking, their are two scenarios here. 1. The Council informed Revan and perhaps other Jedi of their findings, that their was something else behind the war and the danger it posed. Or 2. the Council hid their findings from Revan for whatever reason.
If 1. is the case, then Revan in a sense wasn't rushing into battle without knowledge of his foe, but simply felt it was time to act. If 2. is the case, then the Council acted foolishly and are entirely responsible for Revan's actions. Either way my answer to the first question remains the same, yes.

As for the second, I said no because their is no excuse for atrocities, Revan only proved the Council right and inflicted further pain on the galaxy. I can understand why, but I don't advocate it.

And may I add a question to your list:
Do you think Revan's fall could have been prevented?

^^this is the key question. If the answer is a definite no, then the events that transpired where inevitable.
Ooooh. Good question!

Yes. I think that Revan's fall could have been avoided. If the Jedi had entered the war, then there are several reasons why Revan wouldn't have falleen.

1: Once you break one rule, then you're more likely to break another. If the Jedi had supported Revan, then he would've been less likely to break more rules.

2: If the Jedi Masters were on the front line with Revan, then they could have stamped out any arising badness in Revan the second they saw it. As it happened, there was nobody to impart wisdom upon Revan.

3: Revan wouldn't have been in charge if the Jedi had joined the war. Accordingly, he wouldn't have had the opportunity to make bad leadership choices.

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
11.09.2012 , 04:50 PM | #75
Quote: Originally Posted by MasterMe View Post
Question 1: Yes. The Republic needed his leadership and the Jedi he brought with him. What he did after he joined the war is a different matter, so I won't get into it.

Question 2: Yes and No. I'm sure early in the war what he did was fine, but as we know, his decision making got bad. He took up aggresive tactics that unnecessarily risked his men's lives. He abandoned worlds for the purpose of victory. This isn't always a bad thing. Sometimes you have to sacrifice lives to save others. But it's my understanding that he did this to the extent to which it was a bad thing. There's a difference between sacrificing people for the purpose of saving others, and then there's sacrificing people for the purpose of total victory. This happens when people get impatient. I believe Revan got impatient.

Don't get me wrong, I think that using aggressive tactics is a good thing. Revan did good in this since. But aventually, he made victory his top priority (saving lives and preserving freedom should always be your top priority). He forgot that he needed freedom for the purpose of saving lives. The man got everything mixed up. But yea, aggressive tactics are good things in and of themselves.
His tactics became far more aggressive as the war went on. A hint to the Darkness that was manifesting inside him. He began to sacrifice more and more people for total victory.

While aggressive tactics are necessary, you can't sacrifice entire worlds for total victory. Revan failed, or didn't try, to comprehend the consequences of his strategy. Revan could have won the war in a far more different way. A way that I have laid out in previous posts.
Added Chapter 66 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

MasterMe's Avatar


MasterMe
11.09.2012 , 04:52 PM | #76
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
His tactics became far more aggressive as the war went on. A hint to the Darkness that was manifesting inside him. He began to sacrifice more and more people for total victory.

While aggressive tactics are necessary, you can't sacrifice entire worlds for total victory. Revan failed, or didn't try, to comprehend the consequences of his strategy. Revan could have won the war in a far more different way. A way that I have laid out in previous posts.
100% agreed.

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
11.09.2012 , 04:56 PM | #77
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
You make some good points, but I don't think many Jedi began falling to the dark side through the course of the Mandalorian Wars. From what I gather from KOTOR 1 and KOTOR 2 it was the Battle of Malachor that broke most of the Jedi and turned them to the dark side. And yes, you guessed it, Zez-Kai Ell my favourite of my least favourite Jedi Council supports me on this.


I think it was the events of Malachor and the fanaticism the Revanchists had to their leader and therefore devotion to his new teachings if what led to Jedi falling to the dark side. Revan and Malak where the only ones really affected by the events of the war.
I agree, in the words of Master Ell "Malachor was that crucible."

I think Revan wanted to bring several Jedi over to the Dark Side for his future war, which is why he forced the Mandalorians into a confrontation at Malachor. That's my opinion, but if that was the reason that would be incredibly Sith-like.

But if that isn't the case, then Malachor did to many like it did to Revan and Malak. I believe that every Jedi who fought in the war was affected in some way. Revan and Malak were usually at the front so they would feel the effects more than the others, but for many Malachor was the crucible that led to many falling to the Dark Side.
Added Chapter 66 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
11.09.2012 , 05:00 PM | #78
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
The thing about Kreia is that she lies, but you can tell what is the truth. There are ways to sort out truths and lies.

That's not really what I meant. Maybe I worded it wrong. She believes everything that she says, lies or no, and forcefully tries to educate people on her views. She believes everything she says, which makes her dangerous.

We also have to remember that the Dark Side twists the views of those it corrupts. Even the greatest of heroes and most devout followers of the Jedi way could become a person that hates everything he once stood for. Revan was finally turned at Malachor, a planet of immense Dark Side energies. The Dark Side presence greatly affected his mind and twisted his will, enhancing the Darkness already manifesting within him.

Is Malachor's Dark Energies the reason for his fall? Yes. I believe that he could have been turned back if he hadn't gone to look for the Sith Empire. Once he found the Star Forge, it became nigh irreversible.
I see your reasoning here (I think). Am a right in saying you believe Kreia was effectively lying/decieving herself? Itn that sense not only would here Deceptions and Manipulations be lies, but her beliefs (or at least most of them) lies also because she has almost convinced herself of their truth. So all we can believe in are her cryptic conundrums! Also I agree with what you say about her falling to the dark side. I sometimes forget that Kreia did fall to the dark side and therefore her views on things could easily have been distorted (but then she never seems quite sith). I don't think we so much have to sift through the lies and the truths, but rather whether its Kreia talking or denial and the dark side. In the case of her theory on Revan, its a bit of both. She's in denial that she's a failed teacher, and her judgement is distorted by the darkside, but at the same time she had evidence to support the fact that Revan wasn't in it for conquest, but preservation. But like Kreia, his judgement had been twisted.

Just a random thought, but what would Kreia's judgement of the Mandalorian Wars be? - say if she replaced Atris as Jedi Historian on the Council (good riddance). And would her judgement change from the perspective of Darth Traya? Personally I believe Kreia would have brought some much needed wisdom into the debate, and spurred the Council into acting on their words, but at the same time she doesn't come across as the foolhardy type who rushes into battle. Lol, she probably find a way of manipulating the Mandalorians to start fighting themselves - that vicious old scow!

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
11.09.2012 , 05:05 PM | #79
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
I agree, in the words of Master Ell "Malachor was that crucible."

I think Revan wanted to bring several Jedi over to the Dark Side for his future war, which is why he forced the Mandalorians into a confrontation at Malachor. That's my opinion, but if that was the reason that would be incredibly Sith-like.

But if that isn't the case, then Malachor did to many like it did to Revan and Malak. I believe that every Jedi who fought in the war was affected in some way. Revan and Malak were usually at the front so they would feel the effects more than the others, but for many Malachor was the crucible that led to many falling to the Dark Side.
Hmmmm, this is food for thought. At what point did Revan decide he had to take over the Republic, and make it stronger? If Malachor was a ploy to turn Jedi to the darkside, Revan must have already had been considering taking the Republic, without knowledge of the True Sith. Or maybe he did have knowledge, Malachor did have signs of the True Sith, and according to Kreia 'paved the way to Korriban' and the True Sith. But then this has been retconned slightly I believe, as apparently he learned this from Mandalore... Or maybe Kreia knew before, and told Revan? There are a hundred questions buzzing around my head! But all I see really, is a rather large plot hole...

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
11.09.2012 , 05:06 PM | #80
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
I see your reasoning here (I think). Am a right in saying you believe Kreia was effectively lying/decieving herself? Itn that sense not only would here Deceptions and Manipulations be lies, but her beliefs (or at least most of them) lies also because she has almost convinced herself of their truth. So all we can believe in are her cryptic conundrums! Also I agree with what you say about her falling to the dark side. I sometimes forget that Kreia did fall to the dark side and therefore her views on things could easily have been distorted (but then she never seems quite sith). I don't think we so much have to sift through the lies and the truths, but rather whether its Kreia talking or denial and the dark side. In the case of her theory on Revan, its a bit of both. She's in denial that she's a failed teacher, and her judgement is distorted by the darkside, but at the same time she had evidence to support the fact that Revan wasn't in it for conquest, but preservation. But like Kreia, his judgement had been twisted.

Just a random thought, but what would Kreia's judgement of the Mandalorian Wars be? - say if she replaced Atris as Jedi Historian on the Council (good riddance). And would her judgement change from the perspective of Darth Traya? Personally I believe Kreia would have brought some much needed wisdom into the debate, and spurred the Council into acting on their words, but at the same time she doesn't come across as the foolhardy type who rushes into battle. Lol, she probably find a way of manipulating the Mandalorians to start fighting themselves - that vicious old scow!
You hit that right on the proverbial Death Star reactor core shaft. She's a complicated character, one of the reasons I like her. I don't like her manipulating me, but she's a good character.

She probably would have done what the Council did at first. But she probably would have gone to war. She condemned the Jedi Council for their inaction ("Apathy is Death" and all that), so it is quite plausible that she would have gone to war if it were her decision.

Either that or give old Mandalore a visit and screw with his head. Manipulative witch!
Added Chapter 66 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus