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An in-depth look at: The Mandalorian Wars

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
An in-depth look at: The Mandalorian Wars

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
11.09.2012 , 12:54 PM | #51
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
This sound likes a sound course of action, why weren't you on the Jedi Council! What would you say to Jedi strike teams (similar to SWTOR) striking out at key Mandalorian targets so a Republic victory could progress more smoothly? I feel that in such a format, and detached from the frenzy of full scale war (as well as not being in a position of command, they would simply have objectives to complete) and would prevent fall to the dark side. And didn't they do this in the Clone Wars? How many episodes are about Jedi teams taking out targets, performing rescue missions etc. rather than full scale war?

As for your first statement however, partly true. Revan's actions did lead him close to the darkside. But it was Malachor and meeting the Emperor that gave the final push. If these events were prevented, his fall would never have happened. In fact I think the main reason for his fall was the True Sith threat, like Kreia said he never 'fell', but felt it was necessary to become a Dark Lord to reforge the Republic (and he was brainwashed by the Emperor - people seem to forget this). If he had never discovered the True Sith, he would have no reason to fall to the dark side, because that would mean turning against the Republic, and Revan would not do that without good reason.
The path of war is a winding path. If the Mandalorians had ahold of any space stations or critical installations I would send a strike team. The strike team would consist of a small group of Republic commandos and one Jedi. Depending on the level of defense in place, of course, but that would be preferred.

As to Revan, I disagree with you on only a few points. Malachor cemented Revan's fall to the Dark Side. The Emperor brainwahed him to do his bidding, but I believe Revan managed to shake free from his control either through his own will or the power of the Star Forge. I don't think it was necessary for Revan to fall to the Dark Side to save the Republic.

And remember that you are taking the word of a pathological liar. I think you would agree with me on that part. I do understand that Kreia was a wise person, but her views are a bit out there. Nevertheless, I do credit her for her achievements, but I don't really trust what she says. No offense to you and your opinion of her of course.
Added Chapter 29 to The Shadows Fall
"My ultimate goal is the secret of life-that life that gives us consciousness, for without consciousness each of us is nothing. Through science, i will create new life and sustain my own. There is no reason Darth Plagueis could not live forever."

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
11.09.2012 , 01:00 PM | #52
Quote: Originally Posted by MasterMe View Post
That's very interesting.

However Option 3 (I think) would have gone better then you say. If the Jedi had joined the war (I mean join mostly as generals) then everything would've been fine. There wouldn't have been an opportunity for people (like Revan) to fall to the darkside. because the moment Revan did something remotely bad, then the Council would have been on top of him and would have prevented any fall.
This is true, but Option 3 referred to the Jedi acting as soldiers. However, the wisdom of the Jedi and their adherence to the Light would have allowed for different strategies and could have prevented Revan from falling. But of course it probably wouldn't have.

Look at it this way. Jedi are receptive of the emotions of those around them. If the Jedi fought on the front lines, they would feel a wave of intense emotion. They would have felt the bloodlust of the Mandalorian armies. Only the wisest and most adhered to the Jedi way could resist these emotions. The Jedi in training or the Jedi who have not yet mastered their emotions would be enveloped into the chaos, consumed by the bloodlust that they feel from the Mandalorians.

This is why I have said that they should have joined in advisory and defensive capacity.
Added Chapter 29 to The Shadows Fall
"My ultimate goal is the secret of life-that life that gives us consciousness, for without consciousness each of us is nothing. Through science, i will create new life and sustain my own. There is no reason Darth Plagueis could not live forever."

MasterMe's Avatar


MasterMe
11.09.2012 , 01:06 PM | #53
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
This is true, but Option 3 referred to the Jedi acting as soldiers. However, the wisdom of the Jedi and their adherence to the Light would have allowed for different strategies and could have prevented Revan from falling. But of course it probably wouldn't have.

Look at it this way. Jedi are receptive of the emotions of those around them. If the Jedi fought on the front lines, they would feel a wave of intense emotion. They would have felt the bloodlust of the Mandalorian armies. Only the wisest and most adhered to the Jedi way could resist these emotions. The Jedi in training or the Jedi who have not yet mastered their emotions would be enveloped into the chaos, consumed by the bloodlust that they feel from the Mandalorians.

This is why I have said that they should have joined in advisory and defensive capacity.
That's a very good point. But haven't the Jedi fought other wars without falling to the emotions around them?

But I agree, the Jedi should have entered the war as generals and advisors, with a few Jedi sprinkled in there to provide leadership on the front lines (only the wiser Jedi would do this). Would you agree that this is likely the best course of action?

Yes, it's possible that Revan would still turn to the darkside (but very unlikely), but Revan wouldn't be able to turn all his followers to the darkside because he wouldn't have any followers. If anyone fell to the darkside, it would have been a few individuals, no entire armies. Don't forget the soldiers. They would'nt have turned either because of the support of the Jedi.

mefit's Avatar


mefit
11.09.2012 , 01:11 PM | #54
Quote: Originally Posted by MasterMe View Post
That's very interesting.

However Option 3 (I think) would have gone better then you say. If the Jedi had joined the war (I mean join mostly as generals) then everything would've been fine. There wouldn't have been an opportunity for people (like Revan) to fall to the darkside. because the moment Revan did something remotely bad, then the Council would have been on top of him and would have prevented any fall.
Not to argue so please do not take offense in MY OPINION and what I know .

1 Revan was on his way to the Darkside when he decided to disobey the Jedi Council and go to war.
2 The Jedi Council was aware of Revan Falling , along with Malek and thought of Meetra + the other Jedi who follow Revan . In Lore they wanted to try them and takeaway their ability to use the force , but at the time of the War they what I think knew if they got involved they would be seen as Traitors of the Republic . Because their only way they could tried Revan, Malek , Meetra , or the others would have been by (A) by getting them by Force (B) Hoping they would come back . Saddly only Meetra is a Loyal Person in this story , as she remained Loyal to Revan and Loyal to the Jedi .

There was no way they could have stopped him from falling or the others and by the time of his Fall which was when largely he gained control over the Republic Navy/Army , he was at the point of coming into his Power and skill . When the War ended Revan was feared by the Jedi and they sent in a group to try to cetch him but his loss was only because his Apprentice was doing what Sith do when your Master is distracted............Gaining control of the Situation and taking the Master Roll by killing the Master , Revan had the Jedi well controlled in that fight and he would have likely won and killed his future childs mother .
Again Fate was that Malek had to betray Revan , and the SithCode demanded it .
Now I would think if it wasn't for Bastila Raven would have without a Doubt died on his flag ship .
Again Fate .

Back on my Reply to you , Revan would have been shown as a betrayed hero by the Jedi Council if they tried anyway to get him before that war had ended . Then you would have likely seen a Hunt for Jedi for that Action , because all teh Republic seen was Revan and friends helping the Republic Defeat its Enemies and there for a Hero !
The Republic was blinded by the War to see Revan was doing immoral actions and was likely because of the Force and how it works going to become a DarkJedi and do what DarkJedi do !
Darth Mefit
Sith Marauder
Chiss
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Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
11.09.2012 , 01:14 PM | #55
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
As to Revan, I disagree with you on only a few points. Malachor cemented Revan's fall to the Dark Side. The Emperor brainwashed him to do his bidding, but I believe Revan managed to shake free from his control either through his own will or the power of the Star Forge. I don't think it was necessary for Revan to fall to the Dark Side to save the Republic.

And remember that you are taking the word of a pathological liar. I think you would agree with me on that part. I do understand that Kreia was a wise person, but her views are a bit out there. Nevertheless, I do credit her for her achievements, but I don't really trust what she says. No offense to you and your opinion of her of course.
You dare... (I kid, sort of - heck who am I kidding. DIE!)

I think what people need to realise though, it that while Kreia was a manipulating witch (or as Atton prefers, old scow ) she was capable of telling the truth, and didn't lie for the sake of lying, or because she had a mental disorder (she's not GLaDOS people). She only told lies to further her own agenda. We can categorize what she says into 3 sections: Lies and Manipulations, Cryptic Jedi Speak, Her Beliefs. What she says here slots into the 'Her Beliefs' section, as does all the other stuff she tells you about the Insidious Force, the True Sith and compassion etcera. This stuff is as truth as truth can get. But its subjective, so we can't say for sure. All we know is that Kreia was the most well-versed in the subject of Revan - arguably nobody new about his past better, not even Bastila. No doubt she came to this decision when investigating his past, so we can only assume she found some evidence to support this. But then again, it could have just been an attempt to prove that she was right and the Jedi were wrong, maybe she's just in denial. We can't say for sure (we can say she believes this to be true, she's not lying it that sense)

But what Kreia says is a springboard, by looking at the facts we can see logic and truth in her argument. You may remember in KOTOR 2 (you may never have got this dialogue), but Mical 'cracks it' if you like. He realises that Revan's conquest was not your run of the mill invasion, but a preservation, as if he was preparing for an invasion. His love for the Republic is also another factor. But we can't say what was going on in his head for sure, or how corrupted by the dark side he had become. And to be honest, the opinion that Revan never 'fell' to the dark side is an opinion, its purely subjective and can't really be backed up by facts, even if Revan believed this was true, you could argue against him, you can just accept it or reject it. SHE WASN'T LYING THOUGH! *tears out hair* Why does no one believe her? *starts sobbing*

Wow, my threads are always looong... (I spend more time here than playing the game) I'm not a ranter people, just got a lot to say.

EDIT: I forgot to mention this, too caught up in my rage. But lets say none of the events surrounding Malachor, the Emperor never happened. But the Mandalorian Wars did and Revan was involved and did the same things. Why would he turn to the dark side? (not rhetorical, I'm genuinely interested) I can't think of a reason he would embrace the Sith and war against the Republic, with no other Sith to turn him.

EDIT AGAIN: I think Malak is the real problem here, not Revan.

Rayla_Felana's Avatar


Rayla_Felana
11.09.2012 , 01:30 PM | #56
Quote: Originally Posted by MasterMe View Post
Has it worked? He hasn't conquered the galaxy yet.

But I definately feel that it mattered.
Just imagine if the Mandos had won their war
or if Darth Revan had won the Jedi Civil War

Wouldn't that change a lot?
The Mandalorians never would have really won the war eventually, regardless of Jedi interference, anyone who really knows what happened in the war knows that Republic recruitment grew four times it's previous number due to the Jedi's entrance into the war, thousands every day signed up for the Republic Army, hope had been restored, but I think It would've happened anyway because the Jedi would have eventually interfered regardless and once the Mandalorians started to gain in the mid-rim, people wouldn't jsut sit around to get wiped out, so the desolation that actually took place between the two wars, would have happened anyway, due to the worlds that would've burned in their place.

The Mandalorians were never meant to win the war, they were meant to test Republic strength, that was it, job done regardless, the Jedi Civil War and following Dark Wars were just icing on the cake for the Sith, the damage would've been done and the strength of the Republic would've been seen anyway.

mefit's Avatar


mefit
11.09.2012 , 01:36 PM | #57
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
EDIT: I forgot to mention this, too caught up in my rage. But lets say none of the events surrounding Malachor, the Emperor never happened. But the Mandalorian Wars did and Revan was involved and did the same things. Why would he turn to the dark side? (not rhetorical, I'm genuinely interested) I can't think of a reason he would embrace the Sith and war against the Republic, with no other Sith to turn him.

EDIT AGAIN: I think Malak is the real problem here, not Revan.
Revan's fall was that of his immoral decisions , and the later of power . He eventually believe that he and only he could keep the Republic Safe from its enemies , this is even before he went looking for the Emperor .
The Jedi Code is there to remind Jedi how easy it is to fall to the Darkside , not just a chant !

Malek was dragged to the Darkside by following Revan much like the other Jedi who followed him , Meetra was bond by loyalty to the Jedi as much to her friend Revan . In the end she was no evil by her actions nor was it her plan to do it . She obeied a Command and gave a Command , but she did feel the effects of her action but it did not taint her to the darkside . Everyone else Jedi wise that followed him were blind to the cause and were at that point willing to take Revan on anything he said . Kinda like Blind Fanboism.

In the end Revan was full of emotion and not willing to listen to the Jedi more wiser than himself , and in his blind emotion cause billions to die , almost the end of the Jedi , and corrupted many of inocents . His fall was going to happen no matter because he was unable to control his emotions much like Anakin . Hence why he is stronger as a Sith then he ever was as a Jedi .
Darth Mefit
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Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
11.09.2012 , 01:41 PM | #58
Quote: Originally Posted by mefit View Post
Revan's fall was that of his immoral decisions , and the later of power . He eventually believe that he and only he could keep the Republic Safe from its enemies , this is even before he went looking for the Emperor .
The Jedi Code is there to remind Jedi how easy it is to fall to the Darkside , not just a chant !

Malek was dragged to the Darkside by following Revan much like the other Jedi who followed him , Meetra was bond by loyalty to the Jedi as much to her friend Revan . In the end she was no evil by her actions nor was it her plan to do it . She obeied a Command and gave a Command , but she did feel the effects of her action but it did not taint her to the darkside . Everyone else Jedi wise that followed him were blind to the cause and were at that point willing to take Revan on anything he said . Kinda like Blind Fanboism.

In the end Revan was full of emotion and not willing to listen to the Jedi more wiser than himself , and in his blind emotion cause billions to die , almost the end of the Jedi , and corrupted many of inocents . His fall was going to happen no matter because he was unable to control his emotions much like Anakin . Hence why he is stronger as a Sith then he ever was as a Jedi .
Hmmmm, I'm still not convinced. I see now the possibility of Revan falling to the dark side and sparking a Civil War simply because he believed the Republic needed to be stronger to face any threat - not the true sith specifically.

But if the Council were involved and the Jedi were shown to be strong, would this have ever happened?

Maaruin's Avatar


Maaruin
11.09.2012 , 02:27 PM | #59
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
That's true. We don't know what would have happened. But like Rayla said, the Emperor would have come in eventually.

The way I see it, there are many different ways the war could have gone down.

1. What did happen
2. The Jedi don't join the war at all
3. The Jedi join the war when things get really bad
4. The Jedi join the war right away

Option 1 led to the Jedi Civil War. Option 2 would lead to the Republic being destroyed. Option 3 would lead to the Jedi Civil War and the Republic being destroyed. Option 4 leads to the Jedi Civil War and the Republic being destroyed. But the outcome doesn't matter as the Emperor would have attacked eventually. What matters about these outcomes is who the Emperor would fight.

Option 1 is what we have now in TOR. Option 2 the Emperor takes control from Mandalore, with or without conflict. Option 3 and 4 the Emperor fights the "Sith" and the Star Forge.

EDIT: But these are only a few outcomes and paths that could have been taken.
I disagree with you on option two. The Republic wouldn't have been destroyed. The Core Worlds are pretty tough, I doubt the Mandalorians would have conquered them. At some point the Republic would have stopped them.
If the Sith joined the war then, the real threat would be revealed and the Empire would have to fight the Jedi Order at full might.
"I was one of many. We were servants of the dark side… Sith Lords, we called ourselves. So proud. In the end we were not so proud. We hid… hid from those we had betrayed. We fell… and I knew it would be so."
-Ajunta Pall

MasterMe's Avatar


MasterMe
11.09.2012 , 02:31 PM | #60
Quote: Originally Posted by mefit View Post
Not to argue so please do not take offense in MY OPINION and what I know .

1 Revan was on his way to the Darkside when he decided to disobey the Jedi Council and go to war.
2 The Jedi Council was aware of Revan Falling , along with Malek and thought of Meetra + the other Jedi who follow Revan . In Lore they wanted to try them and takeaway their ability to use the force , but at the time of the War they what I think knew if they got involved they would be seen as Traitors of the Republic . Because their only way they could tried Revan, Malek , Meetra , or the others would have been by (A) by getting them by Force (B) Hoping they would come back . Saddly only Meetra is a Loyal Person in this story , as she remained Loyal to Revan and Loyal to the Jedi .

There was no way they could have stopped him from falling or the others and by the time of his Fall which was when largely he gained control over the Republic Navy/Army , he was at the point of coming into his Power and skill . When the War ended Revan was feared by the Jedi and they sent in a group to try to cetch him but his loss was only because his Apprentice was doing what Sith do when your Master is distracted............Gaining control of the Situation and taking the Master Roll by killing the Master , Revan had the Jedi well controlled in that fight and he would have likely won and killed his future childs mother .
Again Fate was that Malek had to betray Revan , and the SithCode demanded it .
Now I would think if it wasn't for Bastila Raven would have without a Doubt died on his flag ship .
Again Fate .

Back on my Reply to you , Revan would have been shown as a betrayed hero by the Jedi Council if they tried anyway to get him before that war had ended . Then you would have likely seen a Hunt for Jedi for that Action , because all teh Republic seen was Revan and friends helping the Republic Defeat its Enemies and there for a Hero !
The Republic was blinded by the War to see Revan was doing immoral actions and was likely because of the Force and how it works going to become a DarkJedi and do what DarkJedi do !
Sorry but Revan was NOT on his way to the darkside when he joined the war. It was during the war that he was twisted.