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Let the Jedi use his light saber

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes
Let the Jedi use his light saber

Altheran's Avatar


Altheran
11.12.2012 , 04:57 AM | #41
Quote: Originally Posted by Chemic_al View Post
But this is just means there's even less reason to deny sorc/sages willpower to melee damage.
I agree at 100%, with the difference between regular Lightsabers and double-bladed ones, removing Willpower to melee is an unnecessary move from BioWare (as well as not making any sense).

Aital's Avatar


Aital
11.12.2012 , 09:42 PM | #42
My point was that Even giving forcepower did nothing but bring double strike to the lv of an unbuffed disturbance approximately. Just adding willpower would not be enough. I doubt even with forcepower added it would surpass shadows in melee damage. Sage basic strikes are too basic and don't have bonuses. They would still only be 1500 dps at most. And that is for the 25force double strike. The saber strike would be far less.

Edit: Wait, I think I know one discrepancy in this argument. My willpower forcepower is not using either for crit. So yea if willpower was added to crit bonus also that would probably be good. Though that would still only be a small increase.

Forcepower plus willpower using crit by my first estimate would still only be a 5% increase from my last numbers. It still wouldn't be that large of an increase. It goes from 12% to 17% ECM/crit modifier.

Lets see:
Double Strike
with forcepower and willpower. Willpower adding to crit.
1100x2=2200/3=1466.67x1.1734(*0.34x0.51)= 1721dps. Edit: 1100x2=2200/3=1466.67x1.1623=1704.68DPS So 1700dps with a main attack of 2k dps.

Double Strike Willpower with no Forcepower. willpower adding to crit.
621.1 bonus damage
973.1 - 1151.35 Weapon damage
Estimate:
796.5 - 863.5 = 830 average damage.

830x2=1660x1.5=1106.67x1.1734=1298.56dps Edit: 1106.67x1.1623=1286.28DPS

I think that is still a little low. but you can decide.

Edit: BTW I'm using 34% crit for weapon damage. That is probably a bit to high. so the damage will be lower to each by a bit potentially. My actually crit for weapons via my given setup would be 31.82 total. so subtract a small percentage of damage Also removing the defence and replacing with power would only increase the base damage to +75 and the WZ mods would increast another +25. That increases it to about 1800 or so. But increases the spells more.

Telekinetic Throw:
1000x4=4000/3=1333.33x1.15(alacrity)=1533.33x1.2023(effective crit mod for spells)=1843.56DPSx1.06(damage bonus)=1954.13DPS

FYI I did the crit bonus for spells wrong earlier. I forgot disturbance and telekinetic throw have a +6% to crit chance. and I forgot their 6% to damage.

Disturbance:
I estimate from the current ration to average damage of disturbance my layout from before will have disturbance with a base 1541.86 damage per hit.
1541.86/1.5=1028x1.15(alacrity)=1182.1x1.06(bonus damage)=1253x1.2023(ecm)=1506.43x1.2(proc bonus)= 1807.73DPS

Edit: I forgot the procted version doesn't use alacrity. So 1807.73/1.15=1572.15DPS

Project:
Estimated damage per hit base = 1822.67 damage

1822.67/1.5=1215x1.1717(lower ecm of other spells)=1423.6x1.225(proc effective dps bonus)=1743.9x1.06(damage bonus)=1848.54DPS

And my disturbance isn't even fully using all the bonus spells. I have a hybrid also neither of these spells are as strong as they could be.

As you can see, without forcepower there is no chance of getting them close to the other damge for them to be viable. If you had pure tree on top of this it would be even worse per spell. You need forcepower added to even get close to DPS viability.

LuciferinDNA's Avatar


LuciferinDNA
11.13.2012 , 01:42 PM | #43
Quote: Originally Posted by Aital View Post
My point was that Even giving forcepower did nothing but bring double strike to the lv of an unbuffed disturbance approximately. Just adding willpower would not be enough. I doubt even with forcepower added it would surpass shadows in melee damage. Sage basic strikes are too basic and don't have bonuses. They would still only be 1500 dps at most. And that is for the 25force double strike. The saber strike would be far less.

Edit: Wait, I think I know one discrepancy in this argument. My willpower forcepower is not using either for crit. So yea if willpower was added to crit bonus also that would probably be good. Though that would still only be a small increase.

Forcepower plus willpower using crit by my first estimate would still only be a 5% increase from my last numbers. It still wouldn't be that large of an increase. It goes from 12% to 17% ECM/crit modifier.

Lets see:
Double Strike
with forcepower and willpower. Willpower adding to crit.
1100x2=2200/3=1466.67x1.1734(*0.34x0.51)= 1721dps.

Double Strike Willpower with no Forcepower. willpower adding to crit.
621.1 bonus damage
973.1 - 1151.35 Weapon damage
Estimate:
796.5 - 863.5 = 830 average damage.

830x2=1660x1.5=1106.67x1.1734=1298.56dps

I think that is still a little low. but you can decide.

Edit: BTW I'm using 34% crit for weapon damage. That is probably a bit to high. so the damage will be lower to each by a bit potentially. My actually crit for weapons via my given setup would be 31.82 total. so subtract a small percentage of damage Also removing the defence and replacing with power would only increase the base damage to +75 and the WZ mods would increast another +25. That increases it to about 1800 or so. But increases the spells more.

Telekinetic Throw:
1000x4=4000/3=1333.33x1.15(alacrity)=1533.33x1.2023(effective crit mod for spells)=1843.56DPSx1.06(damage bonus)=1954.13DPS

FYI I did the crit bonus for spells wrong earlier. I forgot disturbance and telekinetic throw have a +6% to crit chance. and I forgot their 6% to damage.

Disturbance:
I estimate from the current ration to average damage of disturbance my layout from before will have disturbance with a base 1541.86 damage per hit.
1541.86/1.5=1028x1.15(alacrity)=1182.1x1.06(bonus damage)=1253x1.2023(ecm)=1506.43x1.2(proc bonus)= 1807.73DPS

Edit: I forgot the procted version doesn't use alacrity. So 1807.73/1.15=1572.15DPS

Project:
Estimated damage per hit base = 1822.67 damage

1822.67/1.5=1215x1.1717(lower ecm of other spells)=1423.6x1.225(proc effective dps bonus)=1743.9x1.06(damage bonus)=1848.54DPS

And my disturbance isn't even fully using all the bonus spells. I have a hybrid also neither of these spells are as strong as they could be.

As you can see, without forcepower there is no chance of getting them close to the other damge for them to be viable. If you had pure tree on top of this it would be even worse per spell. You need forcepower added to even get close to DPS viability.
It could be THE dream of all Sage/Sorc to make there melee attack viable. - I wish, that it would come true, but I doubt , )

My base suggestion was a bit modest then your point of view, I just suggested to make that light saber hit happen and I didn't even dreamed to make it viable.
To implant willpower like a melee modifier to Sage/Sorc's panel would be a 30 minutes of scripting and its 100% sure, that it never would disturb the game balance.
To make there melee hit viable and to let it work some how with there main rotation would be more complex work, brainstorming from the devs side and a great debate from the player base. But I support it! : )

I can imagine it only in one way, if the melee hit would hit like truck - a risk vs reward situation.
risk - like the Sage/Sorc droops his distance and run into melee range
And if he makes a move like that, there should be a reward as well - this time its a strong melee hit.

Let the force be with the brave developer who touch this project : )

But I still say, that for the first step - willpower to melee mod. like all classes use there main attribute.

Aital's Avatar


Aital
11.16.2012 , 12:03 PM | #44
Does anyone know the given reason they removed it or never put it on? I would imagine it was probably on the weapon in at least beta by things I've hear.

Altheran's Avatar


Altheran
11.16.2012 , 01:13 PM | #45
Quote: Originally Posted by Aital View Post
Does anyone know the given reason they removed it or never put it on?
No idea.

Side note, if they never put it on, it would be hard for us to know why, unless we would have been part of the developpement team...

grumpymooselion's Avatar


grumpymooselion
11.16.2012 , 02:49 PM | #46
I like the idea of no lightsaber on a Jedi. There are other Jedi and Sith for those that like Lightsabers. It's usually all books, games and movies cover are glowbat wielding Jedi and Sith. It's nice to have an option to do something else for once.

Chemic_al's Avatar


Chemic_al
11.17.2012 , 04:36 AM | #47
Quote: Originally Posted by Altheran View Post
No idea.

Side note, if they never put it on, it would be hard for us to know why, unless we would have been part of the developpement team...
I would suggest it's because sorcs and sages don't use accuracy, so whilst that's not an issue early levels, it certainly would be in higher levels. You'd basically miss far too much for it to be useful most of the time.

But even taking that into account, still no reason not to give willpower to damage.

SirGusto's Avatar


SirGusto
11.17.2012 , 12:11 PM | #48
I don't really see what the issue is here. If you wanted to use a lightsaber, you could have used a jedi knight. But you chose the force power type jedi. After that, you had another choice between sage, and shadow. Shadow uses both lightsaber and force. You simply choose the wrong AC for the type of play you would have liked. You chose the only 1 of the 4 types of jedi that doesn't use ls.

As much as I'd like to agree with you, i just can't. There is no way it could be done without re-balancing every class.
Just because you would still stay ranged, doesn't mean someone else couldn't find away to make it OP in pvp.

LuciferinDNA's Avatar


LuciferinDNA
11.17.2012 , 02:10 PM | #49
Quote: Originally Posted by grumpymooselion View Post
I like the idea of no lightsaber on a Jedi. There are other Jedi and Sith for those that like Lightsabers. It's usually all books, games and movies cover are glowbat wielding Jedi and Sith. It's nice to have an option to do something else for once.
Let it be, but then the light saber should be removed totally from the characters hand, and lets say she/he should carry a floating crystal or even nothing : p But this time our Jedi (sage/sorc) opens every even action by pulling out his light saber, what he can't use. This option is simply confusing , )

LuciferinDNA's Avatar


LuciferinDNA
11.17.2012 , 02:51 PM | #50
Quote: Originally Posted by SirGusto View Post
I don't really see what the issue is here. If you wanted to use a lightsaber, you could have used a jedi knight. But you chose the force power type jedi. After that, you had another choice between sage, and shadow. Shadow uses both lightsaber and force. You simply choose the wrong AC for the type of play you would have liked. You chose the only 1 of the 4 types of jedi that doesn't use ls.

As much as I'd like to agree with you, i just can't. There is no way it could be done without re-balancing every class.
Just because you would still stay ranged, doesn't mean someone else couldn't find away to make it OP in pvp.
Like a consular, I have a lvl 50 shadow as well, so its not about "I'm lazy to re-roll.."
Please, make me an example, how can in be OP from any aspect of the game? In pvp it would be simply non viable, till the AD has no support skill for its melee attacks.