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Let the Jedi use his light saber

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes
Let the Jedi use his light saber

Aital's Avatar


Aital
11.11.2012 , 02:39 AM | #31
My End build!
Sage max bonus damage!

I'll add it should be willpower AND Forcepower.

This, first build, is an end build I'm experimenting with for one of my characters. If I added the Force and will damage together it is a bonus of +780 damage. My base melee would be 166.1 so that would be +946.1 total bonus damage. I would have 1298.9-1476.35 damage per swing raw. No more bonuses than this either. That is a 1.5 attack base for a basic swing of 860-984.23 DPS. That is not a lot. The second basic attack wouldn't be much more than that. it would be comparable with the other lowest attacks you use. And only usable with melee range. We do not have range gapping ability spells beside force run. so it is only for close range or when you are out of Force. It would only be logical in my mind to add it instead of maintaining a useless set of basic attacks. Of which we are like the only class that to be stuck without... so what gives?

I'm not the highest dps but this would scale with other damage and not overtake your spells.

Me(Sorc):

ECM = effective crit multiplier = Crit chance in % form 0.xx X multiplier in % 0.xx.

Base Melee: 336 - 505 Energy damage.


Strength (147) +29.4
Power (560) +128.8
Bonus +5%
Total: +166.1
Willpower (2166.7) +433.3
Force Power (1346) +309.6
bonus +5%
Total: +780.0

New bonus: +946.1 approximately (+1173.7 bonus damage if you go buy the "max sage damage bonus" build.)

Weapon damage 1298.9 - 1476.35 (1387.63 average damage)

my current weapon damage is 436-589.

Mind you the max, basically, conceivable, crit bonus is like +40%. That is for spells, not melee. And that is at 50% crit and 80% multiplier and it sacrifices huge amounts of other stats to get! Particularly Power. If the max damage bonus build's melee stats could take all surge in the tertiary skills and get 80% multiplier it would be a bonus of 0.1217 x 0.8 = 0.09736 effective multiplier. Or Plus 10%. So the crit DPS addition would never be very high on a sage. Unless you went strength to specialize and then well there's nothing to complain about. The first build I'm actually working on would have 17% spell ECM/ 9.4% melee ecm effective multiplier to DPS. 22%spell ecm/ 12.33% melee ecm if I switched some accuracy or alacrity for 120 surge rating(66.68 multiplier)

Sage Weapon attacks:

Double Strike:
Instant
Cost: 25 force
Range: 4m

Currently does 367-443 weapon damage twice.

That is 85% min damage on first and 75% of my max damage for the high end. You do two of those. Carry that logic and you get:

1096.4-1107.3 damage times two hits.

Saber Strike:
Instant
Range: 4m

438-593 damage over 3 attacks. Just over my current weapon damage. Making it basically the weapon damage over 3 hits. (1387.63/3 = 462.5, 1518.07/3 = 506 @ 9.4% ecm, 1558.72/3 = 519.57 @ 12.33% ecm)

The attacks do take time to carry out and losing range or me taking various actions can stop them...

These are also instant spells meaning the DPS is actually 2/3's of the noted damage. so the 2200 raw damage is 1466.67dps! and this is a max geared character despite the lower power from the build. Adding crit will only raise that a bit(9.4% for 1604.54 DPS or 12.33% for 1647.5 DPS for double strike!), basically giving you sword swings that do not lower your DPS below your lowest attacks. What it is meant to do.

Edit: FYI At that first builds stats. TK throw should do a base of 1k per hit. That is more than 1k per second as it is a 3 second hit split in 4 hits. So my spell attack would be 1333 dps base. Add crit and alacrity for 1793.55 DPS(1870.2 with 22% ECM = effective crit multiplier). That is more than the Double strike DPS in both cases.

That is not overpowering especially since we will not use it as much being ranged. but we do need it at various times and it's more than a bit unfair we cannot use our basic attacks, when needed or desired!

The other reason is just sheer variation. Having the ability to use those once in a while just because we feel like it and not getting yelled at would be very nice.I know I get very tired of casting my rotation and would love t use them. Having them not lower my DPS, or not by very much, would be spectacular for my sanity, if anything else.

** I also had the idea to add a small 0.5% force regen(1.5% per swing) to the Saber Strike via skills or just given at some lv. And a slow down for Double Strike that is 10 seconds and stacks maybe x times and adds to the stack for each hit(2x per attack) for +10% slowdown per stack. Could be 5 possibly so you can get away or help in melee like you do with telekinetic throw if you want, and to help get away unlike TK throw since Tk throw goes away instantly and this would last 10 seconds. But those are just ideas.

BTW the Sage has really really really really cool looking sword swings!! 8D For those people looking for Asoka's backwards holding swing, the sage does it! Although he does not hold it like that after he's done.

So in conclusion:

Quote: Originally Posted by LuciferinDNA View Post
If Sage/Sorc will be able to use there willpower(Edit: I'm adding "AND Forcepower") bonus for melee dmg bonus (like all classes do with there main attribute and class roll pair (force-melee, ranged-tech) the 2 base melee skills what he would be able to use will never bring better dmg outcome compared to there main skills.
It would do just one thing, make this two melee ability viable and using it for fun.
This is all its about.
If you have more specific questions and you still confused please take your time and ask : )

Altheran's Avatar


Altheran
11.11.2012 , 05:44 AM | #32
Quote: Originally Posted by Aital View Post
I'll add it should be willpower AND Forcepower.
No. Clearly no. Just Willpower. Forcepower isn't meant to boost melee damage whatever the Advanced class is.
Force Power is a stat on weapon-type items so that Force abilities improve in the same line as melee abilities because weapons bear damage bonus. The same goes for Tech Power, for non-force users.

Aital's Avatar


Aital
11.11.2012 , 06:19 AM | #33
that really doesn't matter. It's a stat. without it the melee swing will not be on par. And the Jedi can use their force powers to aid in melee combat. they can do it in many ways. I've seen this over and over in game design and fiction.

The sage trains that side so he can use forcepower to enhance his sword melee abilities instead of using brute force. That is traditional Jedi skills.... Sorry that is how the fiction has traditionally gone.

Altheran's Avatar


Altheran
11.11.2012 , 11:54 AM | #34
I'll keep it simple : Sages mustn't be on par with Shadows for melee abilities. For each class, there is advanced class that is better than the other at using weapon damage, for IA it is Sniper, for Trooper it is Commando, for Knight it is Sentinels, and for Consular it is Shadow.

Shadows don't use Force Power for their melee abilities, so Sages mustn't either. If they surpass Sages it is only because they use a double-bladed lightsaber which give more weapon damage.
Force Power is a stat meant to give almost as much damage bonus as regular weapon (classic lightsaber) to Force, if you apply the stat to melee, it's like giving the equivalent of two weapons as melee bonus, but a double-bladed lightsaber doesn't give twice the bonus, but only 30% or so. It's clear that if Sages would get benefits from Force Power to their melee abilities, Sage would outperform Shadows in melee.

A ranged class better at melee than a melee class ? It's non-sense.

Helig's Avatar


Helig
11.11.2012 , 12:11 PM | #35
Mouseover Willpower as Sage. It buffs all damage, including melee, including melee critical chance. Just like Strength improves Knight's Force powers.
"I'm not *giving* him cake, I'm *assaulting* him with cake!" - Pinkamena Diane Pie

Altheran's Avatar


Altheran
11.11.2012 , 12:13 PM | #36
Quote: Originally Posted by Helig View Post
Mouseover Willpower as Sage. It buffs all damage, including melee, including melee critical chance. Just like Strength improves Knight's Force powers.
When I do it on my Sorc, it doesn't. Only Force is said to be buffed.

Helig's Avatar


Helig
11.11.2012 , 12:18 PM | #37
Quote: Originally Posted by Altheran View Post
When I do it on my Sorc, it doesn't. Only Force is said to be buffed.
Logged on my Sage and............ you're correct. What the frak...... Tried removing Willpower gear and it does indeed not affect my weapon damage.

So yes, in this case, I definitely support this thread. Sages have too few lightsaber skills to become overpowered as a result of WP increasing melee damage.
"I'm not *giving* him cake, I'm *assaulting* him with cake!" - Pinkamena Diane Pie

Chemic_al's Avatar


Chemic_al
11.11.2012 , 02:00 PM | #38
Quote: Originally Posted by Altheran View Post
I'll keep it simple : Sages mustn't be on par with Shadows for melee abilities. For each class, there is advanced class that is better than the other at using weapon damage, for IA it is Sniper, for Trooper it is Commando, for Knight it is Sentinels, and for Consular it is Shadow.
First off even with will bonus to melee damage, they wouldn't surpass shadows and secondly you clearly are unaware of how advanced classes work and their relation to bonus damages.

Quote:
Shadows don't use Force Power for their melee abilities, so Sages mustn't either.
*sigh* Sages don't, and adding willpower to melee damage, still wouldn't change that.

Quote:
If they surpass Sages it is only because they use a double-bladed lightsaber which give more weapon damage.
Force Power is a stat meant to give almost as much damage bonus as regular weapon (classic lightsaber) to Force, if you apply the stat to melee, it's like giving the equivalent of two weapons as melee bonus, but a double-bladed lightsaber doesn't give twice the bonus, but only 30% or so. It's clear that if Sages would get benefits from Force Power to their melee abilities, Sage would outperform Shadows in melee.

A ranged class better at melee than a melee class ? It's non-sense.
Force power does NOTHING for melee damage. Plain Power does, not force power. And plain power even gives sages bonus melee damage.

Here's the bit you clearly seem confused about. Adding Willpower for Sages, buffs Force Power, does nothing for melee. For Shadows, they also get the same bonus to Force power, but they get their Will and a bonus for Str added on to their melee damage. Adding Willpower to melee damage is not the same as adding Force Power to melee damage.. You really, really need to understand this, because all I can see is it seems to fly over your head and you are making comments based on ignorance.

Willpower - is a buff for force for all inquisitors/consulars, but for shadows/sins it gives them melee bonus damage. It should really be changed so sorcs/sages benefit too.
Force power - only affects force abilities. Force bonus damage, is a combination of Willpower, power and buffs (such as inquisitor/warrior). This is the same for all inquisitors/consulars.
Power affects all attacks (melee and force)

And by the way they'd get the same bonus damage if they used a normal lightsabre instead of double-bladed with the same mods, only thing is it would prevent some abilities working, but not change their bonuses at all.

Altheran's Avatar


Altheran
11.11.2012 , 03:09 PM | #39
My gosh ! Chemic_al, you've just done a friendly fire !

Read again what I posted, what said the previous poster, what I quoted before, get an idea of the discussion with Aital, you'll see that I was responding to him who want Willpower and Force Power to buff melee, I tried to explain him why he was wrong, and you'll see that my point had sense.

And by the way you're wrong about this :
Quote: Originally Posted by Chemic_al View Post
And by the way they'd get the same bonus damage if they used a normal lightsabre instead of double-bladed with the same mods, only thing is it would prevent some abilities working, but not change their bonuses at all.
War Hero Lightsaber weapon damage : 324 - 486
War Hero Double-bladed Lightsaber weapon damage : 389 - 584


And so you're wrong saying :
Quote: Originally Posted by Chemic_al View Post
First off even with will bonus to melee damage, they wouldn't surpass shadows and secondly you clearly are unaware of how advanced classes work and their relation to bonus damages.
Because when I said :
Quote: Originally Posted by Altheran View Post
For each class, there is advanced class that is better than the other at using weapon damage, for IA it is Sniper, for Trooper it is Commando, for Knight it is Sentinels, and for Consular it is Shadow.
I only listed advanced class who have either :
- A weapon bearing higher weapon damage (Cannon, Sniper Rifle, Double-bladed Lightsaber)
- Dual weapons which does additionnal damage comparing to the regular attack when wielding only one weapon


I won't list all the parts you misread or didn't understand I was saying to this guy he was spouting non-sense because he put Force Power in the way.
Reading is the key.

Chemic_al's Avatar


Chemic_al
11.12.2012 , 02:53 AM | #40
Yes, quite, my apologies re weapons, you know I always thought it was the hilt/barrel that governed the weapon damage, but oh my this just makes no sense at all given that all the dps WH offhands have 649 force/tech power.

But this is just means there's even less reason to deny sorc/sages willpower to melee damage.