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Rule of Two


Aralt's Avatar


Aralt
12.14.2011 , 01:55 PM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by Zerrik View Post
There are a lot of good arguments for and against the rule of two. The problem is the arguments against the rule of two are all things Bane addresses as he creates it. He knew there would be other apprentices brought into the Sith but ultimately it would come down to two in the end always.

It was the only way, like above posters have said, that the Sith would grow stronger and their strength would not be diluted. I think once Darth Sidious became Emperor is when the rule of two started becoming corrupted. The Separatist movement and the Clone Wars to the Jedi Purge spanned a total of 14 years at least. During that time Darth Sidious has 3 apprentices, Darth Maul, Count Dooku, and finally Darth Vader.

Now one can argue Sidious was following the rule of two to the dot. He saw each of his apprentices were unworthy of the title Dark Lord of the Sith and was grooming another until his current apprentice ultimately failed. Then he just replaced them like he did with Anakin and Dooku.

Now it is during his reign he becomes corrupt. He no longer finds the need for a suitable apprentice to replace him. He just wants one to be his right hand, his tool. He starts cloning himself and is set on using the dark ritual of "Essence Transfer" to keep himself immortal. No he doesn't want Luke to join the Dark side to eventually kill him and take over his Empire. He wants Luke as a tool that he can discard when he gets too powerful. Vader on the other hand does not adhere to the rule of two at all. He wants to use Luke in taking power from the Emperor since he can not do it himself.

So what starts out as a "perfect" rule gets corrupted and twisted in the end like all things do under the influence of the Darkside.
What about Sidious' "Emperor's hand"? What were they to the rule of two? trained in the dark side but not true Sith, did he have a bigger goal then just assassination with them?

ScheurK's Avatar


ScheurK
12.14.2011 , 03:15 PM | #22
They were just darksiders used for assassinations. No more no less...

Zerrik's Avatar


Zerrik
12.14.2011 , 03:56 PM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by Aralt View Post
What about Sidious' "Emperor's hand"? What were they to the rule of two? trained in the dark side but not true Sith, did he have a bigger goal then just assassination with them?
Sidious's "Emperor's Hand" from what I understood and took from the EU were his fail-safe if anything got in his way that he needed to clean up "hush hush" style. They were trained as assassins and later Jedi killers. They did the dirty jobs behind the scenes. So no they were not true sith. The remind me more of Hitler's Youth, at least if you recall Mara Jade's near unwavering faith and admiration of Sidious.

Again this just furthers my argument that Sidious was the one who corrupted and broke the rule of two. Training others in the use of the dark side out side of the true "Master/Apprentice" would be forbidden in Bane's theology.

Tericc's Avatar


Tericc
12.14.2011 , 05:06 PM | #24
Rule of two Sith or Jedi is a tall tale

Its against human nature to not congregate.
Space combat in TOR is like calling Pong tennis.

Pontoppidan's Avatar


Pontoppidan
12.14.2011 , 05:23 PM | #25
Even though there is, obviously, valid arguments against Darth Bane's Rule of Two, they essentially fail to understand the core of being a Sith.

The Sith Order is based on a simple, however unending, craving for power, and The Rule of Two is simply the best way of making sure that the Sith Order will always be at its strongest while also growing in power. Slow perhaps, but growing nonetheless.

This is so because the whole foundation for The Rule of Two is based on the fact that the Apprentice is supposed to, violently, overthrew the Master, thus assuming the mantle of the Dark Lord for him/herself.
In order for this to happen the former master is required to teach the apprentice everything that he/she knows about The Force, and thus when the showdown is imminent the apprentice will, ideally, be stronger and thus vanquishing the former master. The new Dark Lord will then take a new apprentice and so the cycle will continue.

Now why would the Master take and Apprentice when it is obvious, due to the nature of the Sith and the core of The Rule, that the Apprentice will, when the time comes, kill him?
Simple: The Master knows that his sacrifice is needed in order to keep the Order strong, and if he wants to survive, he simply has to be stronger than his apprentice, though without holding any secrets of The Force back, since that would be a violation of the whole "accumulation of power" principle.

So the result is, if you follow The Rule of Two perfectly, that each generation of Dark Lords will be superior to all their predecessors, and thus expanding the power of The Sith.

Now for the point given that "More Sith are superior to Two Sith".
While that would be true incidentally, The Rule of Two will be superior in the end, simply because of the power-craving mentality inherent in nearly all Sith.
If anyone has played KOTOR1 they will remember the last part of The Sith Academy on Korriban, where the apprentice of the master of the academy wants the player to help her overthrow the master.
While she herself is too weak to overthrow her master on her own, she is able to do so with the help of the player (The Player can also choose to side with master) and thus she becomes Master of The Sith Academy too soon and thus actually weakens the Sith Order, because she was not able to overthrow her master herself.

Finishing point: If all Sith were able/willing to follow the principles of The Rule of Two (minus the "Two" part) spotlessly - by never hiding any newfound knowledge in order to gain more individual power, and by only overthrowing a superior without any exterior help whatsoever - the Sith would do excellently with the "more is more" principle. But sadly the Sith society, as a whole, is not able to wrap around the ideas and thus the Rule of Two is superior.

Rule of Two: Accumulation of power

More is more: Deterioration of power

RvEijndhoven's Avatar


RvEijndhoven
12.14.2011 , 06:54 PM | #26
The Rule of Two also doesn't say that a Sith Lord can't train more than one person in the Force, it's simply the fact that only one of them can be (and usually is) his Sith Apprentice.

The rest are... Cannon fodder. Elite mooks, but still mooks. And, if that becomes needed, a pool from which to select a new apprentice after the old apprentice has attempted to take power (either a replacement or a new Apprentice for a new Lord, depending on whether they fail or succeed).

Sure, the Apprentice might be training an apprentice or two of his own on the side too, but again, those are just Dark Jedi, not Sith. Except in case an apprentice (lower case) manages to kill the Apprentice (upper case) or even the Lord. Then they ARE Sith, by virtue of the 'Everyone who disagrees is dead' principle.

The point of the whole exercise, ultimately, is not that there are no other Force users on the Dark Side, it's that only two of them, the strongest, are true Sith. And since there can be only two true Sith, the top dog and the guy he's training to be his replacement, all the focus is on (being worthy and capable of) replacing those two.

Jorander's Avatar


Jorander
12.14.2011 , 09:17 PM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by Alynore View Post
I remember a discussion about the rule of two, and thought it might keep things busy as we patiently wait for our invite.

So Darth Bane gets an invite into the Brother Hood of Darkness. First an Imperial agent and eventually off to the Sith academy. He find weakness in the current sith recruits and the leader and decides to use it against them. So he convinces the Force Bomb to be used, which ultimately destroyed all Sith. Taking over, Darth Bane institutes the rule of Two. A Master and an Apprentice. The Master to bask in the glory of the power of the Dark Side, and the apprentice the want to hunger it.

Its a pointless rule. The Sith are always trying to convert someone to the dark side. Look at Darth Vader, he had a secret apprentice that broke the Rule of Two. There was obviously three....not to mention he tried to convert Luke to the Dark Side. The rule was made to be broken and it can be by any Sith Lord that claims to hold the power over the Sith.

Could a Sith council exist like the Jedi Council? No, I would agree with Darth Bane in that the Sith should only have one leader. Otherwise there would be to much cut- throating going on for the Sith and they would begin to ignore the purpose, which seems to be to destroy the Jedi. In fact, if there was less turmoil within the Sith they might have had a better chance to destroy the Jedi.
The Rule of Two is not pointless. You don't understand how it was designed to function, or what purpose it achieved. So far, it has been the greatest incarnation of the Sith to come along.
"Honor is a fool's prize." Darth Bane
"Love will not condemn you, love will save you." Jolee Bindo
"If you are to truly understand, then you will need the contrast, not adherence to a single ideal." Kreia. The wisest teachers of the force to ever live.

Jorander's Avatar


Jorander
12.14.2011 , 09:18 PM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by Tericc View Post
Rule of two Sith or Jedi is a tall tale

Its against human nature to not congregate.
Sith do many things that are against human nature. One can ignore one's nature if one wishes. Also. there is no Rule of Two for the Jedi.
"Honor is a fool's prize." Darth Bane
"Love will not condemn you, love will save you." Jolee Bindo
"If you are to truly understand, then you will need the contrast, not adherence to a single ideal." Kreia. The wisest teachers of the force to ever live.

Pinguaq's Avatar


Pinguaq
12.14.2011 , 11:13 PM | #29
Most marriages have an implicit "Rule of Two - until death do us part". Sounds like a decent theory, but most end in divorce and even more experience infidelity.

The rule is for the other party, not for the almighty "me"
Facing forward

Berlichtingen's Avatar


Berlichtingen
12.15.2011 , 12:36 AM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by OrderSixtySixx View Post
When you think about it...how many Sith masters have to die before they realize that maybe having an apprentice is a sure fire way of getting usurped/killed. I see apprentices as a liability, unless your goal is to eventually kill said apprentice and somehow absorb thier force power...let them struggle.
Oddly enough, that is exactly what Darth Bane was aiming for. He, sort of, wanted his apprentice to surpass him. The logic given was that it makes the Sith stronger. The Sith becoming weak was what annoyed Bane in the first place
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Honestly, the best Jedi is a dead Jedi. The universe will be a better place when there are fewer people sitting around together, singing Kumbayah