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Stop guarding the healer in Flash Points!


Xenirath's Avatar


Xenirath
10.29.2012 , 06:05 AM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by BenjaminminU View Post
I guard the healer in case they pick up threat, I use guard to minimise the loss of health to the healer. After all i find it more important minimising damage the healer takes while i grab the threat from the enemy that has decided to attack him.

I actually can't believe people are complaining about this..
You don't intercept dmg in PvE, in the long run of a FP you are making it harder for a healer to heal your dps because they: 1) Pull Aggro and take hits 2) Get hit by an AoE and dont have the 5% reduction

I heal and I can tell you right now I never pull aggro from a decent tank who is managing aggro on more than 1 mob correctly, and if I do I rather heal myself than heal 2 dps + tank. We healers have Cc to deal with those 1-2 mobs who wanna hug us where the dps either doesn't or wont use it.
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Grinstone's Avatar


Grinstone
10.29.2012 , 06:21 AM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by cjakubow View Post
I usually guard the DPS that has the highest amount of HP just because I'm kinda lazy in pugs and don't really feel like analyzing everyone's class/gear and making an informed decision. I'll change my guard if another DPS is ripping threat off me or (usually) attacking the wrong thing a lot.

I'll usually guard the healer if they ask me to just to avoid drama.
Same goes for me.

I've only ever encountered one healer who specifically asked for a guard, so I switched it due to the drama concern.

If the healer has aggro it's usually either because I haven't picked up that mob yet or because I'm doing it wrong.

Only semi-related:

When it comes to healers having aggro from weak mobs, however, I put at least half the blame on the DPS. When I DPS I generally make it a point to kill the weakest enemies first, especially if they're healers, whether or not the tank has aggro on them. It takes a few seconds to kill them and will save a lot more grief than a gold or silver dying a few seconds faster. Then again, as a DPS I generally make a point to protect the healer in case the tank missed something or is busy elsewhere just then. In turn, I've typically seen the healers make it a point to keep me alive.

Yeah, DPS who think they're doing the world a favor if they do more than pour damage on the biggest enemy are a bit of a peeve.
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BogyOne's Avatar


BogyOne
10.29.2012 , 06:30 AM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by Xenirath View Post
You don't intercept dmg in PvE, in the long run of a FP you are making it harder for a healer to heal your dps because they: 1) Pull Aggro and take hits 2) Get hit by an AoE and dont have the 5% reduction

I heal and I can tell you right now I never pull aggro from a decent tank who is managing aggro on more than 1 mob correctly, and if I do I rather heal myself than heal 2 dps + tank. We healers have Cc to deal with those 1-2 mobs who wanna hug us where the dps either doesn't or wont use it.
Amen to that. When I play my healer I always ask to take guard of me and place on dps, preferably melee. It is easier for me to limit jumping between party members, guard on healer does not help me with that - I have short time CC and can run to tank in emergency.
Besides, Tank + 2 DPS HP pool is ca. 65k HP now and it is not like tank has to have aggro 100% of time, everyone can take bits of damage and as group move faster.

I do not know whether melee needs more threat than ranged over tank level to aggro mob but when I aggro as dps I pop defensive CD and wait few seconds for tank to taunt back and only then drop threat. If e.g. I need 110% threat to aggro then tank when taunting back gets another 10% more, effectively raising his threat by 21% only with taunt. Then I drop threat and go far below new threat level.

Xenirath's Avatar


Xenirath
10.29.2012 , 06:40 AM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by BogyOne View Post
I do not know whether melee needs more threat than ranged over tank level.....
Ive found that the closer to the mob the more aggro you SEEM to accrue. Whether or not this is fact I couldnt say.

Now if a range is over the melee dps's level then tank should decide but at level 50 melee tends to get gaurd due to the vicinity.

But as a healer I find If I stand too close to the fight I draw more aggro so I stay as far away as I can to be comfortable.
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Avatarless's Avatar


Avatarless
10.29.2012 , 07:05 AM | #25
And the real issue is.. if a DPS dies does anyone care? If the healer dies.. well yeah your in trouble.

Ms_Sunlight's Avatar


Ms_Sunlight
10.29.2012 , 07:17 AM | #26
Putting guard on a healer is not idiotic. It is however not always appropriate. Guard should be flexible and situational, and I'll often change who I guard in the middle of a fight as needed.

When I'm tanking a pug, I'll put guard on the healer going in because 5% damage reduction is 5% damage reduction and it's there and free so why not?

If one of the DPS is pulling threat from me I put guard on them to make my life easier. This is usually because of the deadly combo of higher level gear, burst DPS and lazy play. I never have this issue running with guildies, it's usually pugs who want to faceroll their way through their daily HM for comms.

(A friend of mine who heals a lot watches out for this behaviour and often likes to give bad DPS a scare by letting their health drop under 20% until they start behaving themselves, especially the sort of idiot sentinel or marauder who plays like an overexcited puppy, always wants to leap in first and loves breaking CC with their force sweep or smash. I'm not quite so evil yet, but I'm getting there!)

On the other hand, when you get to ops bosses, guard goes back on the healer again. If you lose threat in an op, it's because you're scripted to lose threat - an example is Bonethrasher - and there's nothing you can do but get it back again, guard won't help. On the other hand, 5% damage reduction is 5% damage reduction and it's there and free so why not? I would keep an eye on DPS though, particularly melee DPS, to see if at any point they start to need the damage reduction more.

There are no doubt situational exceptions but that's my basic thoughts on the matter.

Like most people who tank, I've had healers having a go at me in group chat because I put guard on someone else, but it usually becomes apparent when I explain why I've done it that they don't understand the threat mechanics in this game. A healer is almost never going to pull threat off the tank unless the tank has 0 threat on a mob, and in that case, % reduction or no % reduction, their threat is still going to be more than 0, so guard won't help.

Indeed, when I heal I've often suggested that the tank shift guard off me and onto a burst melee DPS because I know how to manage my own threat as a healer, and it's easier for me all round if I'm not having to spend my time keeping glass cannons like sentinels and marauders on their feet. It even lets me help out with the DPS a little someitmes, and we all get through things faster.
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SentinelDranoel's Avatar


SentinelDranoel
10.29.2012 , 07:18 AM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by Lord_of_Mu View Post
This has started to become an annoying trend among pugs and really has to stop. Lets look at what guard does.

"While active, the guarded player takes 5% less damage and generates 25% less threat. In addition, so long as you remain within 15 meters of the guarded player, 50% of all incoming damage from enemy players is transfered back to you."

To break it down. In PvE: "While active, the guarded player takes 5% less damage and generates 25% less threat. In addition, so long as you remain within 15 meters."

In pvp: 50% of all incoming damage from enemy players is transfered back to the tank, so long as you remain within 15 meters

At no point does a healer generate enough threat to exceed a tank's threat ceiling on any single target. Nor do healers come remotely close to the threat generation of classes like the Sentinel which lacks any kind of threat reduction ability.

Common mistake, I guarded you so you couldn't pull agro. If an add spawns or is agroed. You as the tank are responsible for picking it up. Otherwise it will go after the healer, no amount of guarding will change that. In simple mechanics. New mob Tank = 0 % threat. Healer casts heal and generates 100 points of threat, 100% threat. Add guard, healer generates 75 points of threat. Tank has 0 points of threat. 75 points of threat is still 100% of all threat on mobs threat table.

The guard did nothing! And the Sentinel just pulled agro, you should get on that.

Stop using guard as an excuse for poor play and start paying attention. Pick up adds and spread your threat around. We're not in pvp so stop guarding me.

/end rant.

I'm likely going to make a post in the guide forum. Try and nip this in the butt before the stupid overwhelms me.
1. Actually yes a healer can draw a lot of threat. When I heal I do it all the time. NPC's hate when I keep a tank topped off. Don't you want less agro?
2. I only guard a dps when he does superior DPS, otherwise I can hold agro pretty well with Jedi Guardian. The only class I like to tank with because of their mulltiple AOE high threat moves.
3. If a DPS has crappy armor then he will get guard, if their gear is good then healer. Why? Healer needs to be the one to stay alive... so he can heal. If a healer is busy healing himself than he is pretty much not contributing to the group.

This all depends on how well a tank and can draw and keep agro. For me myself, and for other people, I judge on the fact on how much other players draw heavy amounts of agro. If the tank could prevent that or pull the agro is what matters.

"New mob Tank = 0 % threat. Healer casts heal and generates 100 points of threat, 100% threat. Add guard, healer generates 75 points of threat. Tank has 0 points of threat. 75 points of threat is still 100% of all threat on mobs threat table. "

^ LOL that is just wrong, have you ever tanked. How about I write a guide for you showing tanking is done. I don't tank with my powertech in pve and my sith assassin was never full tank spec, but the jedi guardian has enough AOE threat generating moves that I find it easier.
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Eyesmindassassin's Avatar


Eyesmindassassin
10.29.2012 , 07:24 AM | #28
The wording makes it seem as if the range is not 15 meters for PvE. I'd like BioWare to chime in on that since it wasn't resolved in this thread. Either way, I never put Guard on the healer. I think I'm going to start leaving any PuG's where the healer asks for Guard as well. I usually leave when the DPS tunnel vision the Elite or Champion instead of killing the Weaks/Standards/Strongs. Why should I work harder because the DPS are bad? When I'm DPS, I always kill the weakest targets first. Weaks die in 1 hit if it's a crit or 2 otherwise. Bad DPS get no sympathy from me.

Xenirath's Avatar


Xenirath
10.29.2012 , 07:36 AM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by SentinelDranoel View Post
1. Actually yes a healer can draw a lot of threat. When I heal I do it all the time. NPC's hate when I keep a tank topped off. Don't you want less agro?
.
Are you standing 28 meters away from the tank, that helps A LOT. Also what are you using to keep the tank topped off? If you are using dark infusion or a similarly large heal for 1k hp thats a lot of threat that isnt neccessary. Also might wanna make sure you have the reduced aggro skills.
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BogyOne's Avatar


BogyOne
10.29.2012 , 07:58 AM | #30
I found solution - always put guard on sentinel or marauders! They heal party while in Watchman/Annihilation specc so healer definition applies.