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Stop guarding the healer in Flash Points!


recsa's Avatar


recsa
10.29.2012 , 03:37 AM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by Alduinsm View Post
_Sentinel has threat reduction skill.
_Threat reduction from guard works within 30m, no idea if it works beyond 30m.
Wrong, threat reduction from guard works within 15m, at 16m theres no guard. And answering to the sage above, guarding melee is usually the way to go, melee wil be side by side with tank almost all time, while a sage should be at max range to avoid nasty AoE, also most of the bosses have cleave-like abilities that with some pug-bad-possitioning issues increases the dmg taken by melee, add to it that most melee classes has higher burst than ranged ones, the threat reduction may come handy for that.

In short, a melee dps will get more use of guarding than a ranged dps, and yes, agree with OP, healer should not get guard, if healer gets killed by adds its a bad tanking issue.

Only exception to the melee over ranged rule would be huge differences on gearing.
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Kalfear's Avatar


Kalfear
10.29.2012 , 03:39 AM | #12
/shrug

In guild im in, Im one of 2 main flashpoint/ops healers and both healers can grab agro with a single big heal as our stats are optimized to heal large normal and huge when we crit.

No idea what type of healers OP runs with that he claims his healers never steal agro but DPSers do.

Simply not true.

Now in pvp I agree guarding a healer silly unless your going to stay by the healer (not many do and healers required to be so mobile they constantly runing from spot to spot being out of range of the guard).

But in a flash point,
If the tank is losing agro, there is a problem and guard has nothing to do with it
If the DPSers are stealing agro from healer (if the tankl loses agro), the healer is not healing for large numbers and that will be a issue eventually

Guard on Healer to lessen damage and reduce threat is mandatory in hard mode flashpoints and beyond

A good healer in a hard mode or ops will generate a ton of threat that dpsers dont normally come close to.
Damage threat gain and Healing threat gain are on two vastly different tables.
So if the tank losses his/her agro on mob, healers are the primary target normally.

Anything that lessens threat on a healer freeing them up to you know....HEAL....is a good thing.
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Lord_of_Mu's Avatar


Lord_of_Mu
10.29.2012 , 03:47 AM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by Kalfear View Post
/shrug

In guild im in, Im one of 2 main flashpoint/ops healers and both healers can grab agro with a single big heal as our stats are optimized to heal large normal and huge when we crit.

No idea what type of healers OP runs with that he claims his healers never steal agro but DPSers do.

Simply not true.

Now in pvp I agree guarding a healer silly unless your going to stay by the healer (not many do and healers required to be so mobile they constantly runing from spot to spot being out of range of the guard).

But in a flash point,
If the tank is losing agro, there is a problem and guard has nothing to do with it
If the DPSers are stealing agro from healer (if the tankl loses agro), the healer is not healing for large numbers and that will be a issue eventually

Guard on Healer to lessen damage and reduce threat is mandatory in hard mode flashpoints and beyond

A good healer in a hard mode or ops will generate a ton of threat that dpsers dont normally come close to.
Damage threat gain and Healing threat gain are on two vastly different tables.
So if the tank losses his/her agro on mob, healers are the primary target normally.

Anything that lessens threat on a healer freeing them up to you know....HEAL....is a good thing.
I heal with a sage and soon a commando. I also tank with a guardian and vanguard. I have several years experience aoe tanking in WoW and apply the same experience to TOR. The mechanics are nearly identical so the practice remains relatively the same.

When I'm tanking there will be a brief moment that a healer will get hit from one or two stray shots until such time that I am able to attack the mobs. Guarding the healer will not change this fact. Attacking mobs will. At no point does a healer pull agro from me once I have established threat on all mobs in the group.

Alduinsm's Avatar


Alduinsm
10.29.2012 , 03:50 AM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by recsa View Post
Wrong, threat reduction from guard works within 15m, at 16m theres no guard.
I don't think so.

Quote:
While active, the guarded player takes 5% less damage and generates 25% less threat. In addition, so long as you remain within 15 meters of the guarded player, 50% of all incoming damage from enemy players is transferred back to you. Requires Soresu Form.
Shin

IndigoHawk's Avatar


IndigoHawk
10.29.2012 , 03:50 AM | #15
I don't know about this. When I heal in pugs, I find plenty of bad groups where the tank focuses on one enemy at a time, and one or both of the dps decide to help the tank burn down the target with the most health, leaving everything alive as long as possible. That leaves all the trash to attack the healer since no one else is engaging it. However, on the possibility that someone accidentally hits the trash (maybe with an area attack on the tank's target), that threat reduction on the healer might help.

In addition, since the healer and the tank are the main ones taking damage, the damage reduction is helpful on the healer. If the dps manage to pick up enough aggro to take a hit from the healer, great. The healer could use a break from being the off tank.

Also, that 25% threat reduction actually hurts when "go fast" dps engage instead of the tank. Without threat reduction, maybe the dps will take an extra hit before all the aggro is back on the healer.

So ... you may be overestimating the level of pug play. Shield on healer is fine for pug FPs.

Boyana's Avatar


Boyana
10.29.2012 , 03:52 AM | #16
In a flashpoint, if I do not know who the dpsers are, I will first use my guard to protect the healer.
If there is a dpser pulling an aggro, I will automatically switch to him and keep it that way.

The reason why am I doing that is many DPSers are really lazy people and pressing random spells to look cool, because, for them, that is just a flashpoint. Not many play their class to full potential. That is why I think, if something goes wrong, the best is to protect the healer who has to be 'there' 99% of the time while dps people do not have and I cannot prove they are just pressing one spell.

I remember, it was a second time for me to tank on my assassin alt, when other assassin told me I should guard him, not a healer. After I asked him is he pulling aggro and he answered he is not, I explained if I notice I will guard him. That, however, NEVER happened and he went afk after we pulled one pack, just before the last Foundy boss, Darth Revan.

That is how I do it. I might be wrong and maybe it is not the best approach but for me it works fine.

Now, that is the reason why some people - me - will always guard the healer first until DPSers prove otherwise. (In FP, ofc)

Avatarless's Avatar


Avatarless
10.29.2012 , 03:54 AM | #17
It's more situational than you make out in the OP. If your tank is not mixing it up depending on the pull then that's a deficiency.

DPS should not get guard 100% of the time, just as healers shouldn't either. Just as the post above this one has stated.

Lord_of_Mu's Avatar


Lord_of_Mu
10.29.2012 , 04:19 AM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by IndigoHawk View Post
I don't know about this. When I heal in pugs, I find plenty of bad groups where the tank focuses on one enemy at a time, and one or both of the dps decide to help the tank burn down the target with the most health, leaving everything alive as long as possible. That leaves all the trash to attack the healer since no one else is engaging it. However, on the possibility that someone accidentally hits the trash (maybe with an area attack on the tank's target), that threat reduction on the healer might help.

In addition, since the healer and the tank are the main ones taking damage, the damage reduction is helpful on the healer. If the dps manage to pick up enough aggro to take a hit from the healer, great. The healer could use a break from being the off tank.

Also, that 25% threat reduction actually hurts when "go fast" dps engage instead of the tank. Without threat reduction, maybe the dps will take an extra hit before all the aggro is back on the healer.

So ... you may be overestimating the level of pug play. Shield on healer is fine for pug FPs.
You're suggesting that ignorance is a perfectly acceptable excuse for incompetence. The problem is, its no longer about who is receiving guard but rather with people that have a major case of tunnel vision, are lazy or just don't care.

I don't consider myself to be the perfect tank or healer by any stretch of the imagination though I certainly try to cover all of the bases and ensure the best possible run.

I don't believe it's unrealistic to hope that people will give something a decent short. However, more often than not, people will put the least amount of effort in and use what ever poor man's crutch they can to enable their continued poor performance.

I realize that I'm essentially targeting one small aspect of the greater problem.

BenjaminminU's Avatar


BenjaminminU
10.29.2012 , 05:49 AM | #19
I guard the healer in case they pick up threat, I use guard to minimise the loss of health to the healer. After all i find it more important minimising damage the healer takes while i grab the threat from the enemy that has decided to attack him.

I actually can't believe people are complaining about this..
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Xenirath's Avatar


Xenirath
10.29.2012 , 06:02 AM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by Exiled-Phoenix View Post
Mobs that arn't being attacked by a DPS or tank (aoe or single target) will usually get agroed by the healer.
Healer their agro generation is spread over all mobs in the fight.
thus guarding a healer in a FP with alot of trash is a good idea
Not really, you shouldn't gaurd the healer as the dps should kill anything even thinking about attacking the healer instead of tunnel visioning. Fact is gaurding your highest dps saves a lot of hassle with pulling threat, melee especially.

Even if a healer for some reason pulls threat to to bad tank aggro control as long as it isnt 2-3 silvers they can heal through the hits while the tank reestablishes aggro control, but tank shouldn't be focusing in on whacking 1 mob at a time either like I see most doing.
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