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BW, do you ever plan on addressing DPS Mercs/Commandos PvP-wise?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
BW, do you ever plan on addressing DPS Mercs/Commandos PvP-wise?
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Larry_Dallas's Avatar


Larry_Dallas
10.31.2012 , 12:56 PM | #51
Quote: Originally Posted by Phasersablaze View Post
What on earth is wrong with you guys? Do you even play PVP? How can you say it would screw over 10 other classes if we were immune to interrupts? Hello snipers? Have you ever heard of the mechanic called cover? How about Entrench? Are you completely ignorant to any other class but your own?

I hate to break it to you but our burst dps is NOT good. It's pretty bad actually. And I'm 95 valor and have been BIS for months so I'm pretty sure I know what I am talking about. Assasin, MArauder, PT, Operative - every single one has significantly better burst dps, and if you don't think burst dps is important in a PVP environment you just are not a very good PVPer at all.
Guess which one of those things bursts as much as a merc at 30m? That's right, none of them (and if you had your leap immunity, the marauders won't burst at any range because they can't use any attack against a merc).

Guess which ranged spec period bursts for more than a merc does? Snipers...and that's it. And Snipers can't move. So what you want is for a pve spec to be a mobile, uninterruptible class that the enemy cannot close ground on and you want it to burst as much from 30 m as a concealment op does at 4m.

You're not asking for balance, you're asking for an iwin button. Which is why developers do not read these forums. Legit balance issues get lost in a sea of people seeking some unnecessary advantage.

Phasersablaze's Avatar


Phasersablaze
10.31.2012 , 01:00 PM | #52
Quote: Originally Posted by Larry_Dallas View Post
Guess which one of those things bursts as much as a merc at 30m? That's right, none of them (and if you had your leap immunity, the marauders won't burst at any range because they can't use any attack against a merc).

Guess which ranged spec period bursts for more than a merc does? Snipers...and that's it. And Snipers can't move. So what you want is for a pve spec to be a mobile, uninterruptible class that the enemy cannot close ground on and you want it to burst as much from 30 m as a concealment op does at 4m.

You're not asking for balance, you're asking for an iwin button. Which is why developers do not read these forums. Legit balance issues get lost in a sea of people seeking some unnecessary advantage.
Oh no no no no no you didn't just bring "30m" into this! Don't ruin your credibility so early man. That's laughable and not even worth explaining. If you don't already understand the problem then get out and pvp a little more.


No sorry. I-win button is called 6k AE SMASH! Merc have pretty sub-par burst (whish is just one of their many problems which need fixing). Zach is right. As long as bioware acts like smash specs are ok, then they are the standard. And if someone can leap into a pack of guys and autocrit for multiple targets for 6k every 11 seconds when I have trouble getting 5k on a single target we have a problem.

Chaoskyx's Avatar


Chaoskyx
10.31.2012 , 01:01 PM | #53
Quote: Originally Posted by AllisonBerryman View Post
Admittedly, they can be very hard to catch when used correctly to hug corners, but a lot of that "escapability" falls aside when attacked by multiple melee enemies, at which point they just aren't quite tough enough to sustain without further escapes.
Hugging corners as a commando/mercenary simply does not work, even against a single melee enemy; you can't deal significant damage while running around pillars (maybe for a short time when specialized in Assault Specialist/Pyrotech, but only for 3 attacks, maybe 4 if you immediately cancel Full Auto/Unload), but melee classes can, and healing is absurdly ineffective when not specialized as a healer due to the activation times, pushback, resource costs, and low healing done relative to damage taken.

If an enemy applies a snare or root (which any decent player will do), it becomes impossible to evade melee enemies in this manner. Furthermore, melee classes can keep us slowed indefinitely due to the lack of downtime on their snares, and the fact that most melee classes in the game use force based slows and roots makes the situation even worse, as we cannot cleanse force based effects.

The 30% snare available to Assault Specialist/Pyrotech specialized commandos/mercenaries that has a 16% chance to be applied with ranged damage is a woefully inadequate counter to enemy slows, and the 4 second root attached to Stockstrike/Rocket Punch when specialized in Gunnery/Arsenal is even worse because we need to be within melee range to apply it; If we're slowed when we apply the root, it is entirely useless, as we will not be able to gain any significant amount of distance.

Also, why are commandos and mercenaries expected to hug corners when gunslingers and snipers are not? The former possess no advantage over the latter. It would be understandable for us to lack the defenses of gunslingers and snipers when specialized as healers, but there is no reason for commandos and mercenaries - and sages and sorcerers, for that matter - to lack comparable defenses in their damage-centric skill trees. (Please note that I used the word "comparable"; I would like to see different playstyles for different classes.)

I could go on, but I'll conclude here and say that while I am pleased to see that the PvP design team is looking into the troubles with commandos and mercenaries, it bothers me that they still do not seem to understand how the classes function in high level PvP.

TKiwi's Avatar


TKiwi
10.31.2012 , 01:10 PM | #54
As a predominate Commando/Merc player (Commando Heals and Merc Arsenal), I'ne noticed quite a few things.

In regards to Arsenal, the problem seems to be mobility. All of the main abilities are casts which are a root on myself in of itself. I understand that when played hugging a wall, a Merc can put out a lot of DPS, but it's so rare that we are in that situation...Once a Mara/Sent leaps, interrupts, and roots us, it's game over...sure we can prolong the inevitable but it's a tough task asking to beat them out 1v1.

Even for my Commando healer I have better survivability and mobility. Most of the time I'm focused by at least 2 players on the opposing team. I've got Bacta Infusion (can be used as an on-the-run heal), kolto bomb, and even the trauma probe serves as a damage mitigation. Tease them with a MP (will be interrupted) and then use AMP. Stay on the run, toss shield when in LOS of the ranged dps, rinse and repeat. Now Commando Healers have plenty of problems themselves (don't get me started about the hammer shot being a complete waste in PvP - "Hey everyone!! I'm over here! Come get the healer!") but with Merc Arsenal, there's no such mobility. Unload has a cast, Power shot has a cast, tracer missile has a cast, DfA is ineffective when playing a decent group, rocket punch doesn't even seem to root them anymore...the knockback version was better! I'm forced to stay in close against melee speced opponents! And even if I do get some distance from them, their Force Leap has just cooled off..

I don't usually comment on the forums (hence this being my first comment!) but i was getting really frustrated last night PvPing with that Merc because the other classes know that Arsenal is dependent on casts... I read a comment about Merc's being a Rooted Turret and couldn't agree more.

foxmob's Avatar


foxmob
10.31.2012 , 01:36 PM | #55
Quote: Originally Posted by Larry_Dallas View Post
Well, at least they did notice this problem. But he's overestimating how effective corner hugging is. If a single enemy applies a snare or root, corner hugging does bupkiss for a merc.
the comedy of corner hugging is that all melee have instant abils. and almost every merc/commando abil is a cast. so it's impossible to kite a melee without a reliable root and snare. corner hugging only works against...other commandos (ok, all ranged). and starting a root from melee range (the new stockstrike) is pathetic. reducing the range of cryo grenade ON COMMANDOS was even worse. they actually managed to nerf the escape-ability of the class with the worst escape-ability in the game.
A legacy of meh
Krackerjšck/Krackerjak (VG/PT) | Krackerjack/Deinon (Mando/Merc) | Dežnon (Jugg) | other stuffs
Quote: Originally Posted by Jadescythe View Post
TL;DR Bolster is meant to help entry level players, ranked PvP is not entry level PvP.

Phasersablaze's Avatar


Phasersablaze
10.31.2012 , 01:45 PM | #56
Quote: Originally Posted by cashogy View Post

The stun can stay at 10m, but I see no logical reason for the change other than Bioware decided all stuns happen w/in 10m.
/looks at a sniper/gunslinger

So what about that ranged advantage we are supposed to have? Not seeing it.

Dovahbrah's Avatar


Dovahbrah
10.31.2012 , 01:51 PM | #57
Surprised this thread got a yellow post, albeit not a very informative one. But some acknowledgment is better than none.
Leaf - 50 Commando - The Fatman Notleaf - 50 Juggernaught - POT5
Leafe - 50 Shadow - The Fatman
Leafy - 50 Vanguard - The Fatman
Leafyy - 50 Sentinel - The Fatman

foxmob's Avatar


foxmob
10.31.2012 , 01:52 PM | #58
Quote: Originally Posted by Siorac View Post
What you're basically saying is "don't play Gunnery/Arsenal in PvP". Which is stupid. Every spec should have something to offer in PvP as the tree's description says "Damage", not "PvE"
Why is that stupid? you don't have to roll a new toon to play both environs with the same toon. one AC remains viable in both PvP and PvE. why is it stupid? because you're in love with your PvE-centric spec? dude, PvE is PvEasy. it just is. and BW has to make PvEasy specs so that introductory players (or casuals, w/e) will have an option. they'd have to completely redesign PvP to make tracer spamming competitive. that would break every other class. the spec sucks in pvp. deal with it. there are (or should be) other (more mobile) options.
A legacy of meh
Krackerjšck/Krackerjak (VG/PT) | Krackerjack/Deinon (Mando/Merc) | Dežnon (Jugg) | other stuffs
Quote: Originally Posted by Jadescythe View Post
TL;DR Bolster is meant to help entry level players, ranked PvP is not entry level PvP.

Dovahbrah's Avatar


Dovahbrah
10.31.2012 , 01:53 PM | #59
Quote: Originally Posted by foxmob View Post
Why is that stupid? you don't have to roll a new toon to play both environs with the same toon. one AC remains viable in both PvP and PvE. why is it stupid? because you're in love with your PvE-centric spec? dude, PvE is PvEasy. it just is. and BW has to make PvEasy specs so that introductory players (or casuals, w/e) will have an option.
If Marauders/Sent can have all 3 of their trees viable in PvP, then the other ACs should have all of their trees viable as well.
Leaf - 50 Commando - The Fatman Notleaf - 50 Juggernaught - POT5
Leafe - 50 Shadow - The Fatman
Leafy - 50 Vanguard - The Fatman
Leafyy - 50 Sentinel - The Fatman

foxmob's Avatar


foxmob
10.31.2012 , 01:55 PM | #60
Quote: Originally Posted by Dovahbrah View Post
If Marauders/Sent can have all 3 of their trees viable in PvP, then the other ACs should have all of their trees viable as well.
lol - and that was a stupid thing for BW to do in the first place. isn't it universally agreed that the buff to focus was uncalled for? now name one other AC that has 3 excellent pvp specs. your exception proves the rule.
A legacy of meh
Krackerjšck/Krackerjak (VG/PT) | Krackerjack/Deinon (Mando/Merc) | Dežnon (Jugg) | other stuffs
Quote: Originally Posted by Jadescythe View Post
TL;DR Bolster is meant to help entry level players, ranked PvP is not entry level PvP.