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BW, do you ever plan on addressing DPS Mercs/Commandos PvP-wise?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
BW, do you ever plan on addressing DPS Mercs/Commandos PvP-wise?
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ArchangelLBC's Avatar


ArchangelLBC
11.27.2012 , 06:43 PM | #371
Quote: Originally Posted by Macroeconomics View Post
Illegal Mods. 30% boost to Accuracy. In fairness, I incorrectly called it a talent not an ability. But it's there. And it's clearly available for use by the dual wielding player when he gets attacked by an enemy melee so he can avoid triggering Riposte/Retaliation with his offhand weapon. Merc need a similar ability to use in similar circumstances, particularly since BHs lack the same repertoire of tools to keep enemy melee at range.
10s of boosted accuracy every 120s. 15% armor penetration too though. I wouldn't mind an actual By God Offensive cooldown, and not just for 50 PVP. Tech Override is kind of a joke if we're honest, at least as an offensive cooldown.

Still you can't really think that a 8.33...% uptime is making the difference between effectiveness and non-effectiveness in PVP.

It's funny, when I look at the list of things we need, minor though many of them are, that I feel we need, I always feel like I'm asking too much. Then I realize what other classes have and then I'm just mad that our class is only half built.
In update 2.9 the game will simply uninstall itself for you.

-Wnd

Bluntron's Avatar


Bluntron
11.27.2012 , 11:15 PM | #372
Okay after reading the first 8 pages, is it just me or is everyone who is speaking on this thread that plays a Commando/Merc only talking about only playing Arsenal/Gunnery.....Does Pyrotech/Assault not apply to the much needed changes that this class is deprived of? I have played arsenal in the beta and Pyro for the real thing, All I do is grind valor rank and ranked comms in regular WZ never ranked. As mentioned before who wants a Merc/Commando on their teams if there are other classes that do a better job. Now, in a WZ, I personally feel its all about positioning. You want to park yourself near a wall or something where people really don't notice or pay attention where your blaster fire is coming from. So normally I can melt people in a matter of seconds...Damage is never the issue. Its when the damn lightsabers start pounding my face in. So normally I would knockback (Did I tell that my only gap knockback can be resisted?) electro dart (Now its dart first [possible rocket punch] then knockback). and run behind the corner off heal, and run around again, and try to pull off the bigger heal (Cause you know a hit from someone brings me down to bout 60% hp or less) before I get leap on or interrupted (Usually never works though as the heal takes a few seconds.) The only problem with pillar hugging is eventually you will have made a semi circle and there is a certain part of pillar that you never want to be hugging (the part that is usually exposed in the open where the mesh of players are fighting, I'm thinking voidstar first door sort of thing) The moment I enter that kill zone...well the term speaks for itself, everyone jumps on me and Im down in matter of moments. Now granted "kiting" as pyro is possible, just spamming rapid shots and missile blasts whenever rail shot/thermal/explosive dart/ and a power surged powershot aren't possible, and off healing as much as possible if you can get around corners quick enough. But when you have a melee class that can keep you slowed longer than you can keep them slowed and that can't be removed (And I am suppose to be the kiter class....seem illogical to me) I can't even play the pillar hump game or kite.
Now personally I like being one of the few Warlords with 1390 expertise that still play their merc so I don't want to be OP ever again and have everyone and their sister be playing my class. But I feel like I should have a fighting chance. I am not asking for 1v1 balance either, because I believe that MMOs should revolve around what it stands for, Massive Multiplayer. So that's fine if I can't beat a Mara/Sent, or a Sin/Shade, but I have ZERO fighting chance against any class that isn't the same AC as me...Let me rephrase that, the only time I HAVE a fighting chance against any class that isn't my mirror or the same AC as me is if I have WZ meds, AND WZ adrenals (with the exception of massive caster classes, cause I can poke in and out of LoS on them and burn them down with dots and instant abilities) So if I may, let me share my two cents with what I think is needed to change so I don't become the last one of my kind.
Apologies if I don't mention Trooper abilities here, for I only played merc this whole time.

Commando/Merc all together:
- Disengage (Blast Off term for Merc and Full Retreat for Commandos) - Fly back/sprint(Slide, roll, or whatever seems cooler for troopers I suppose) 30m back firing your weapon at the target (Or to be able to do some instant ability while in the process), making you immune to pulls, snares, and charges for 4secs. 30sec -1min Cooldown. If people feel that, that would be TOO OP, than just let it be a disengage with no immunity. But with a 10sec -15sec Cooldown instead. That way, we get charged, Jet boost, we get charged again Blast Off....seems legit.
- Electro Dart/Stun - 30m
- Power Surge - Allows you to cast/channel an ability while moving for 10secs. 3-5min CD
For Arsenal/Gunnery:
-Rocket Punch - Knock back 10m 4sec root
-Jet Boost - Knock back 20m 2sec root

For Pyrotech/Assault:
(I really only ask for 1 thing here)
-Instant cast Power shot (Powertechs get an instant ability that can take 20% of my health away, and they can spam it. if I am a kiter class shouldnt I be allowed to use at least 1 decent ability that doesn't have a CD on it?) Put it in a talent some where high up in the tree so arsenal or BG can't get it. Or have it become an instant ONLY when you have combustible gas cylinder active, since PTs don't get power shot I don't see it being a problem, and Arsenal and BG use a different cylinder.

Agree or Disagree how you guys see fit, but please avoid trolling, or crying.

Bluntron's Avatar


Bluntron
11.27.2012 , 11:28 PM | #373
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthBloodloss View Post
There is no point arguing about accuracy. You guys are both correct.

Its easy to get enough accuracy, while keeping surge at optimum levels.

Also, our offhand gets an accuracy penalty. Commando does not have an offhand weapon and so does not get a minor penalty. If the classes are supposed to be mirrored, this is one minor discrepancy in favor of Pubs.
So do snipers get an accuracy talent? Sniper rifle over duel wielding pistols


I am just wondering. I only played Merc so far.

ArchangelLBC's Avatar


ArchangelLBC
11.28.2012 , 12:57 AM | #374
Quote: Originally Posted by Bluntron View Post
So do snipers get an accuracy talent? Sniper rifle over duel wielding pistols


I am just wondering. I only played Merc so far.
Yeah the trees and skills are mirrored. They get a 3% accuracy talent (1% per point) at the bottom of the marksmanship tree, and get Target Acquired at 50 which gives the same 10s of 15% armor penetration and 30% accuracy.


On your other post, a technical critique: Paragraphs are your friend. Big walls of text are kinda....not so enjoyable to read. What I was able to glean was that you were wondering where all the ideas for Pyro/Assault were?

The consensus seems to be that that spec needs less (and thus perhaps should be the target of BW's efforts). I personally think That Charged Bolts/Powershot should have a 3 point talent to proc the Plasma Cell/CGC DoT same as Vanguard/PT. I'd replace the endurance talent personally.

Talk about utility (roots and baseline snares) and finding a way to either negate cast times or interrupts (Charged Bolts/Powershot mostly, though Full Auto maybe as well) definitely applies to the Assault/Pyro tree for Commando/Merc. The ability of CB/PS to reset HiB means we should be using it a fair bit which means the spec suffers from many of the same weaknesses as gunnery. Talk about the need for something to aid in survivability is also applicable. The class is just squishy.

I'd like a talent in the tree that makes CB/PS instant cast but I think the damage would have to take a cut somewhat otherwise it'd have the same problems as instant cast GR/TM and make us a tad OP. Like the other ideas.
In update 2.9 the game will simply uninstall itself for you.

-Wnd

Macroeconomics's Avatar


Macroeconomics
11.28.2012 , 01:00 AM | #375
Quote: Originally Posted by Bluntron View Post
So do snipers get an accuracy talent? Sniper rifle over duel wielding pistols
I am just wondering. I only played Merc so far.
Snipers get that same ability. The Accuracy boost isn't as big of an issue for them, but Gunslingers can use it when their pushbacks and roots are on CD and an enemy melee is in their face to avoid triggering Retaliation/Riposte. Mercs need it even more given the much lower ability of the Merc to re-extend range once the melee gets to 4m.

Skyskater's Avatar


Skyskater
11.28.2012 , 01:02 AM | #376
Quote: Originally Posted by Bluntron View Post
For Pyrotech/Assault:
(I really only ask for 1 thing here)
-Instant cast Power shot (Powertechs get an instant ability that can take 20% of my health away, and they can spam it. if I am a kiter class shouldnt I be allowed to use at least 1 decent ability that doesn't have a CD on it?) Put it in a talent some where high up in the tree so arsenal or BG can't get it. Or have it become an instant ONLY when you have combustible gas cylinder active, since PTs don't get power shot I don't see it being a problem, and Arsenal and BG use a different cylinder.

Agree or Disagree how you guys see fit, but please avoid trolling, or crying.
I completely agree with this, and the few other post that mention this, the problem with our survivability is not that we take longer to go down than other class but rather that we can't do dmg while going down.
After playing a vanguard it's apparent that the main thing that makes their dps so high is their ability to get high impact bolt off every 6 seconds basically (lock out time of talent) while commandos/mercs cant do that cause we have a 2 second cast for a 45% chance and a 12 sec cd for a 60% chance to get the proc.

If they really dont want to make power shot an insta cast (it does do about twice the dmg of ion pulse) then a making full auto a 100%(or leave it at 60, not really sure for this one) and power shot a 90% chance to proc HiB could also work as a solution. it conserves the idea of ranged, 2 sec cast (1.5 with talent) is the same as getting two ion pulse off, which pretty much guarantees a proc, (45*2=90). this idea is mainly because it is not impossible to get one power shot off, but when it doesnt proc you basically wasted your time.

ps i know i've mixed in merc and trooper ability names

OldRepublicRevan's Avatar


OldRepublicRevan
11.28.2012 , 02:18 AM | #377
Quote: Originally Posted by Dovahbrah View Post
Admittedly, I haven't touched my Commando since late January, due to the fact that I could see the train wreck that was coming later on. Once people figured out how to play their classes well, especially melee, it was apparent that DPS mercs/commandos would be at the bottom of the food chain.

Alas, I was vindicated, and at the present time DPS Mercs/Commandos are still in a bad place in PvP in the 50s bracket. Sure, they can do well in the 10-49 bracket, but that's irrelevant. The real balance should be in respect to the 50s bracket, and the fact is, Mercs/Commandos are severely under performing. They can do well when mostly ignored and allowed to free-cast, but in reality, this is almost never the case unless the opponent you're facing is awful. Any PvP'er worth his salt knows healers are the priority target, closely followed by Mercs/Commandos since they're basically free kills when under pressure. Whenever I log onto my Jugg/Sentinel/Shadow/Vanguard, I always consider Mercs/Commandos free kills, no matter how good the other player is. Some of them can put up a halfway decent fight at times, but even at their best, they can't get me below 40-50% health. It's a sad state of affairs for them.

So my question is, when is BW going to address the class? I think most can agree with me that it's in a bad spot. There's plenty of other threads regarding the issue, like this one: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=541411

That thread has hundreds of posts, some of them are pure whines, but many of them are filled with genuinely good ideas to improve the class. Yet, there hasn't been a single post from BW in response to the issue. Surely BW can throw the Mercs/Commandos in that thread a bone? If I were to post about the Coin Shop, I'd get a yellow post in an instant. Yet, this thread has hundreds of posts, but not even one response. What's the deal BW?

Merc/Commando damage is, for the most part, in a good place. Damage isn't really the issue. The problem with Mercs/Commandos is their extremely lacking utility/escape abilities. They have no disengage, they have no sprint, they only have 1 knockback, a root that only works in melee range (why?), a mezz (with cast time) on a 1 min CD and a 10m (why?) stun. Mercs/Commandos offer nothing that other classes don't also have, and other classes can do their job better. You don't see DPS Mercs/Commandos in rated warzones, why is that? It's because the other classes offer much more utility and survivability, and overall they do their jobs better.

In my opinion, Mercs/Commandos would have a lot less to complain about if they had some additional utility skills. If you parse that thread I linked, I'm sure you could find some gems that wouldn't overpower the class at all. For example, what if Mercs/Commandos gained 3-4 seconds of increased movement speed after using their knockback? What if their knockback also removed any snares they had on themselves? Why can't the root on stockstrike/rocket punch simply be added on to the knockback component it once had? What if unload/full auto was uninterruptible, like Tanksins' telekinetic throw/lightning and Warriors/Knights' ravage/master strike? What if they had a disengage/retreat that would send them back 20-30 meters on use with a cooldown? What if they had some type of sprint likes inquisitors/consulars? These kind of ideas are golden and would help the class immensely.

Please BW, I don't play my Commando anymore, but help these guys out and give them some love. I'm starting to feel bad every time I kill them in a warzone, it's just not fair. The class is in need of a much needed boost.

P.S. The interrupt you gave them should've been there at release.

Edit: Here's a list of good ideas that have been brought up in this thread and others, so that Devs could see them more easily:
They don't care about addressing this issue. To the developers at Bioware they think it is 'working as intended'.

Mercs/Commandos are a ranged class and typical of most other games the ranged class has the ability to kite their enemies. In SWTOR there is no way for Mercs/Commands to kite anything. We have one stun break which we have to use wisely and most of the time there is no good choice b/c the second its used you just get stunned/slowed again and death follows quickly after.

It surprises me how ALL of the other classes can solo Mercs/Commandos with relative ease yet when I've played other classes I can 1v1 just about any other class except for the really good players and I do use the term 'good' loosely. (Not talking about the one button wonder boys and their smash spec xD)

I wish that Bioware as a whole wasn't going down the drain. Its pretty obvious they don't care about the customers or the players of any of their games anymore. You know it is true when they start trying to cover up the flaws of the game with flashy cosmetics and overpriced addons that ultimately serve no better purpose than to have a 'unique look'.

If they really wanted to address this issue they'd give us our dmg back and give us some way to 'kite' our enemies. Until then I'm afraid DPS Mercs/Commandos will always be free kills to melee.

Things they could do to improve our survivability:

Increase the range of electro dart back to what it originally was. (BTW Bioware shorting the range of electro dart didn't help with the stun lock problem. Ppl still complain about it.)

Unnerf Unload cause the damage is still way below what other dps classes can push.

Give us a second way to escape stuns/slows.

Increase the chance of Power Shot activating our free Rail Shot (For Merc Pyros not Arsenal)

Since you gave Shadows/Assassins an uninterpretable ranged attack you should also make our Unload uninterpretable. (Which btw is stupid as hell. You give a melee class which is already near impossible to kill as a Merc/Command a ranged attack we can't even interrupt. Yes jet boost works but getting in close enough to use it puts us in melee range which is not ideal for a ranged class.)

Give our energy shield a higher amount of damage to absorb or just increase the overall length of time it lasts.

Really anything at this point would help make playing this ranged class less of a headache b/c at this point you guys at Bioware have totally screwed the ppl who ended up making a Merc/Commando as their main.

All in all this game was fun but its going down hill quicker than Jack & Jill. Bioware if you really care at all you'd read and take to heart what ppl are saying in this thread. This is a legit problem in pvp and we've waited way too long for you to do something about this....

OldRepublicRevan's Avatar


OldRepublicRevan
11.28.2012 , 02:28 AM | #378
Quote: Originally Posted by AllisonBerryman View Post
Hi everyone! I talked to Austin Peckenpaugh (Senior Designer) about Commandos and Mercenaries and their situation in PvP right now, and he had this to say:

I think it's fair to say that Mercenaries and Commandos have escape issues. Admittedly, they can be very hard to catch when used correctly to hug corners, but a lot of that "escapability" falls aside when attacked by multiple melee enemies, at which point they just aren't quite tough enough to sustain without further escapes. We have plans for the future that should give Mercenaries and Commandos better escapes in PvP.
Fair to say? Have you even played on The Shadowlands server? Do you know what kind of a headache it is to play one in pvp? You've made us wait far too long for a buff and its not just an escape issue its also a flat out damage issue. The vast difference in melee vs ranged dps is complete and utter ********. Snipers can do more damage than and Merc and have better survivability than us and for months you've said 'we're working as intended'. You guys/girls at Bioware have no idea what your doing and should have never gotten into the MMO business b/c this game is a clear sign you have no idea what ya'll are doing. You should have just Made KoToR III instead of doing an MMO.

OldRepublicRevan's Avatar


OldRepublicRevan
11.28.2012 , 03:11 AM | #379
Quote: Originally Posted by Xenirath View Post
I don't see the problem with Merc/Commandos. Ive played a Mercenary since day 1, it was my first 50, it is still my main. I do fine as a dps merc, albeit I am arsenal specced where as most people prefer pyrotech.

If you can get a healer, or a tank to keep you alive you can kill enemy tanks/healers and dpsers very very quickly as an arsenal merc due to the fact that you reduce armor, deal tech dmg and can hit 2-3 attacks before they even know what hit them.

I have also played a pyrotech and I have to say I enjoy it but not as much as my arsenal. And to the lack of U-T-I-L-I-T-Y as stated previously.

You can make combustible gas cylinders slow the enemy for as long as it is applied which means mercs get a permaslow essentially not sure how that isn't considered utility. Let alone they do massive AoE dmg in all specs besides healing.
Healer? Whats a healer? 98% of the warzones that go on are just two teams of dps just trying to death match. Healers only exist on the Republic and Imperial healers only heal guildies. If your a pug you automatically get screwed out of any heals.

OldRepublicRevan's Avatar


OldRepublicRevan
11.28.2012 , 07:02 AM | #380
Quote: Originally Posted by AllisonBerryman View Post
Hi everyone! I talked to Austin Peckenpaugh (Senior Designer) about Commandos and Mercenaries and their situation in PvP right now, and he had this to say:

I think it's fair to say that Mercenaries and Commandos have escape issues. Admittedly, they can be very hard to catch when used correctly to hug corners, but a lot of that "escapability" falls aside when attacked by multiple melee enemies, at which point they just aren't quite tough enough to sustain without further escapes. We have plans for the future that should give Mercenaries and Commandos better escapes in PvP.
Admittedly they can be hard to catch except for the part where melee can jump to us which makes us not hard to catch at all. Powertechs and Sorcs/Sages can pull us straight to them and dps operatives can knock us down and stab us for like 10 seconds straight before we can even get back up......common Bioware don't try and make it sound like it is the players fault that Mercs/Commands suck. Its your fault Bioware for leaving our class unbuffed for so long. You buffed all the other classes and left us alone. Then you wanna turn around and act like we have no reason to complain.......no wonder this game is such a friggin fail and you lost most of your subscribers after the 2nd month. Maybe if you actually paid attention to the pvp section every once in a while you'd see things aren't working as intended.