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BW, do you ever plan on addressing DPS Mercs/Commandos PvP-wise?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
BW, do you ever plan on addressing DPS Mercs/Commandos PvP-wise?
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Bigtarr's Avatar


Bigtarr
11.26.2012 , 08:20 PM | #361
I lost interest in SWTOR because the Merc was nerfed so bad. The BH was meant to be more powerful. My first class was a sith warrior. I lvled a merc and never looked back at my warrior much. But, then nerf, I stopped playing altogether. Fix the class.
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Macroeconomics's Avatar


Macroeconomics
11.26.2012 , 11:47 PM | #362
Quote: Originally Posted by ArchangelLBC View Post
Accuracy doesn't compete with power. It competes with surge, and it is possible to get to around DR levels on both.

And again, not the least of our problems if I'm honest.
Accuracy doesn't compete with power, it competes with surge? On what planet? Any and every stat should be chosen only if it provides more benefits that all of the other possibilities. One does not characterize them into categories and select only one from each category.

Accuracy is a big problem for Mercs. Unlike Commandos who get more burst potential from having a smaller number of bigger damage attacks (greater upside tail probabilities for crit hit benefits), Mercs are saddled with a larger number of low damage attacks. And the larger number of attacks triggers more Retaliation/Riposte opportunities from our main predators - enemy melee dps. This is exacerbated by the low Accuracy of the offhand weapon.

BW needs to improve accuracy by adding it to an existing low tier talent, or allow Mercs to ditch their two pistols for a bigger gun and a generator. The only other subclass penalized with a ranged offhand weapon has a talent that increases Accuracy by 30%. 30%.

ArchangelLBC's Avatar


ArchangelLBC
11.27.2012 , 12:56 AM | #363
Quote: Originally Posted by Macroeconomics View Post
Accuracy doesn't compete with power, it competes with surge? On what planet? Any and every stat should be chosen only if it provides more benefits that all of the other possibilities. One does not characterize them into categories and select only one from each category.

Accuracy is a big problem for Mercs. Unlike Commandos who get more burst potential from having a smaller number of bigger damage attacks (greater upside tail probabilities for crit hit benefits), Mercs are saddled with a larger number of low damage attacks. And the larger number of attacks triggers more Retaliation/Riposte opportunities from our main predators - enemy melee dps. This is exacerbated by the low Accuracy of the offhand weapon.

BW needs to improve accuracy by adding it to an existing low tier talent, or allow Mercs to ditch their two pistols for a bigger gun and a generator. The only other subclass penalized with a ranged offhand weapon has a talent that increases Accuracy by 30%. 30%.

When I say that accuracy competes with surge not power, what I mean is that when it comes to armor modifications, the choice is between Power vs Crit Rating, and Accuracy vs Surge vs Alacrity.


You cannot get a mod with surge or accuracy. You can only get mods with Aim and a certain amount of Power or Crit rating (i.e. the Agile Mod 27 has 56 Aim and 44 Power and another version has 72 Aim and I think 13 Power).

Likewise, with enhancements they all come with a mix of Endurance, Power/Crit Rating, and Surge/Accuracy/Alacrity.

With the exception of Augments, which for Mercs and Commandos should always be Aim augments, there is never a time when you are forced, or even ALLOWED to choose accuracy instead of power. There is never that choice. This isn't a hard concept.

Also you are mistaken when you imply Merc is the only class that has to dual wield but doesn't get a 30% accuracy boos to offhand. As far as I know no class gets that kind of accuracy boost.

In the carnage/combat tree a Mara/Sent can get 3% accuracy if they spend 3 skill points for it, and if they are actually SPECCED into Carnage/Combat and take Ataru form, they get an additional 3% accuracy. That's nothing to sneeze at (though most don't take the full accuracy talent for PVP, and most don't use that spec at all in PVE), but it's a far cry from 30%. The bottom of the tree has a talent that increases offhand DAMAGE by 12%/24%/36%, but that isn't the same thing.

Gunslingers have one talent in the bottom of the Sharpshooter tree which increases accuracy by 3%. Again 3%. NOT 30%. You added a 0 there chief.

For the record, we used to have an accuracy talent. Many mercs were already only taking one point in that talent (with enough accuracy from gear to get near 100% ranged accuracy) in order to put 2 points in First Responder and 2 in Weapon Calibrations (the alacrity talents). The accuracy talent was replaced with the armor pen buff to HiB/RS and Full Auto/Unload, which while we had to regear a little bit lead to a nice DPS increase for most people.

Accuracy isn't the problem you seem to think it is. Aerro seems to do just fine with 99.89% accuracy. ESPECIALLY in PVP where it's not so much that accuracy isn't an issue as it's that we have so many other weaknesses to deal with before we start talking about accuracy for Unload.

I want class fixes as much as anyone, and it's not like I'll say no to an accuracy talent, but lets not sit here and pretend that accuracy, of all things, is where the class is really hurting.
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Aurthorian's Avatar


Aurthorian
11.27.2012 , 01:32 AM | #364
i agree 100%. something needs to be done. although i think the commando damage is averageish in full war hero but when the enemy gets in melee range then the commando class on both sides are screwed. even commando healers now days are not being played in pvp as much. nothing says stop attaking that knight and follow the green beam to kill me like the hammer shot from combat support cell. but one thing is for sure. dont think for a second that you helped the commando by giving us an interupt bw. we should of had that from day 1. the people have spoken

Macroeconomics's Avatar


Macroeconomics
11.27.2012 , 10:49 AM | #365
Quote: Originally Posted by ArchangelLBC View Post
Gunslingers have one talent in the bottom of the Sharpshooter tree which increases accuracy by 3%. Again 3%. NOT 30%. You added a 0 there chief.

Accuracy isn't the problem you seem to think it is. Aerro seems to do just fine with 99.89% accuracy. ESPECIALLY in PVP where it's not so much that accuracy isn't an issue as it's that we have so many other weaknesses to deal with before we start talking about accuracy for Unload.
Illegal Mods. 30% boost to Accuracy. In fairness, I incorrectly called it a talent not an ability. But it's there. And it's clearly available for use by the dual wielding player when he gets attacked by an enemy melee so he can avoid triggering Riposte/Retaliation with his offhand weapon. Merc need a similar ability to use in similar circumstances, particularly since BHs lack the same repertoire of tools to keep enemy melee at range.

Blockk's Avatar


Blockk
11.27.2012 , 11:42 AM | #366
Quote: Originally Posted by Dovahbrah View Post
Admittedly, I haven't touched my Commando since late January, due to the fact that I could see the train wreck that was coming later on. Once people figured out how to play their classes well, especially melee, it was apparent that DPS mercs/commandos would be at the bottom of the food chain.

Alas, I was vindicated, and at the present time DPS Mercs/Commandos are still in a bad place in PvP in the 50s bracket. Sure, they can do well in the 10-49 bracket, but that's irrelevant. The real balance should be in respect to the 50s bracket, and the fact is, Mercs/Commandos are severely under performing. They can do well when mostly ignored and allowed to free-cast, but in reality, this is almost never the case unless the opponent you're facing is awful. Any PvP'er worth his salt knows healers are the priority target, closely followed by Mercs/Commandos since they're basically free kills when under pressure. Whenever I log onto my Jugg/Sentinel/Shadow/Vanguard, I always consider Mercs/Commandos free kills, no matter how good the other player is. Some of them can put up a halfway decent fight at times, but even at their best, they can't get me below 40-50% health. It's a sad state of affairs for them.

So my question is, when is BW going to address the class? I think most can agree with me that it's in a bad spot. There's plenty of other threads regarding the issue, like this one: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=541411

That thread has hundreds of posts, some of them are pure whines, but many of them are filled with genuinely good ideas to improve the class. Yet, there hasn't been a single post from BW in response to the issue. Surely BW can throw the Mercs/Commandos in that thread a bone? If I were to post about the Coin Shop, I'd get a yellow post in an instant. Yet, this thread has hundreds of posts, but not even one response. What's the deal BW?

Merc/Commando damage is, for the most part, in a good place. Damage isn't really the issue. The problem with Mercs/Commandos is their extremely lacking utility/escape abilities. They have no disengage, they have no sprint, they only have 1 knockback, a root that only works in melee range (why?), a mezz (with cast time) on a 1 min CD and a 10m (why?) stun. Mercs/Commandos offer nothing that other classes don't also have, and other classes can do their job better. You don't see DPS Mercs/Commandos in rated warzones, why is that? It's because the other classes offer much more utility and survivability, and overall they do their jobs better.

In my opinion, Mercs/Commandos would have a lot less to complain about if they had some additional utility skills. If you parse that thread I linked, I'm sure you could find some gems that wouldn't overpower the class at all. For example, what if Mercs/Commandos gained 3-4 seconds of increased movement speed after using their knockback? What if their knockback also removed any snares they had on themselves? Why can't the root on stockstrike/rocket punch simply be added on to the knockback component it once had? What if unload/full auto was uninterruptible, like Tanksins' telekinetic throw/lightning and Warriors/Knights' ravage/master strike? What if they had a disengage/retreat that would send them back 20-30 meters on use with a cooldown? What if they had some type of sprint likes inquisitors/consulars? These kind of ideas are golden and would help the class immensely.

Please BW, I don't play my Commando anymore, but help these guys out and give them some love. I'm starting to feel bad every time I kill them in a warzone, it's just not fair. The class is in need of a much needed boost.

P.S. The interrupt you gave them should've been there at release.

Edit: Here's a list of good ideas that have been brought up in this thread and others, so that Devs could see them more easily:


nice post mate - I am dabbling in PVP with SENT and DPS COMM and you have given me some knowledge worth knowing - cheers
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cashogy's Avatar


cashogy
11.27.2012 , 11:47 AM | #367
Quote: Originally Posted by Macroeconomics View Post
Illegal Mods. 30% boost to Accuracy. In fairness, I incorrectly called it a talent not an ability. But it's there. And it's clearly available for use by the dual wielding player when he gets attacked by an enemy melee so he can avoid triggering Riposte/Retaliation with his offhand weapon. Merc need a similar ability to use in similar circumstances, particularly since BHs lack the same repertoire of tools to keep enemy melee at range.
Sniper has the same ability, what is the rationale there?

it is for killing tanks.

remember that Commando is going to get the same changes as Merc does, and they have no offhand weapon.

yoomazir's Avatar


yoomazir
11.27.2012 , 11:59 AM | #368
Quote: Originally Posted by cashogy View Post
Sniper has the same ability, what is the rationale there?

it is for killing tanks.

remember that Commando is going to get the same changes as Merc does, and they have no offhand weapon.
They have bigger dmg with less chance to miss.

fungihoujo's Avatar


fungihoujo
11.27.2012 , 12:57 PM | #369
Good luck getting a buff now that BW has noticed you- BW gave us a thread asking about sorc problems four months ago and there's still not even a fix in the horizon for us (though, they are kind enough to promise us another nerf).

Hopefully though they'll actually give you something- your class is really sucking.


Naturally- just be ready for when marauders cry about whatever you get buffed- because they'll nerf it back in a month.

DarthBloodloss's Avatar


DarthBloodloss
11.27.2012 , 03:38 PM | #370
There is no point arguing about accuracy. You guys are both correct.

Its easy to get enough accuracy, while keeping surge at optimum levels.

Also, our offhand gets an accuracy penalty. Commando does not have an offhand weapon and so does not get a minor penalty. If the classes are supposed to be mirrored, this is one minor discrepancy in favor of Pubs.
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