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BW, do you ever plan on addressing DPS Mercs/Commandos PvP-wise?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
BW, do you ever plan on addressing DPS Mercs/Commandos PvP-wise?
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Macroecon's Avatar


Macroecon
11.08.2012 , 12:08 PM | #251
The devs reference to "escapability" shows how little they understand how pvp is played at the top levels.

Right now in a match with top players, Merc Pyro damage output trails PT Pyro, Marauder and Jugg Rage by about 30%. That is on top of having less utility to the group. AND having less survivability. Merc Arsenal is frankly as bad, with the minor exception of selected situations where you need to focus fire on heavily defended targets.

For the people that will now inevitably chime in with the "I have no problem doing as much damage as others on my Merc", just can it. I've done 800k damage on my Merc Pyro, and yes almost always score highest in wzs. But I've done better on my Mara in full Recruit gear, and that was before the Smash Monkey era. For those that think Merc dps is competitive, go ask the best ranked team on your server if they would bring along your Merc dps into a rwz. LOL.

Despite these undeniable facts, the devs continue to believe that Merc dps is too high. Why? Because their ingame meta average stats tell them so. But those meta averages are biased because the only people left playing Merc dps are the best geared, most experienced, most stubborn players who won't abandon their class. On my server I can go a full week without seeing another Merc pyro in wz. So 99% of the Merc Pyro meta averages on my server come from my results. And thus Merc Pyro meta averages on my server are much higher than for any other class. BW sees that and resolves to nerf Merc dps. And they will continue to do so until the very best Merc dps players have productivity nerfed down to be equal to the average, undergeared players in a FotM class.

BW needs to abandon the reliance on their ingame meta average stats to guide play balance. They need to balance based on best practices for each subclass. Until that happens, nothing is going to improve.

cashogy's Avatar


cashogy
11.08.2012 , 12:18 PM | #252
Quote: Originally Posted by SOULCASTER View Post
While that would be nice, I dont see that happening. I think the best we can hope for is a fix to our reserver power cell and tech override cooldowns, and use those for insta casting more.

.....that or maybe we can pray for casting bars while moving
casting while moving would basically be the same as an instant ability, since the cast time for both tracer and power shot are 1.5s, which is the same as one global cooldown.

from a coding standpoint, changing the Muzzle Fluting skill box to 2s reduction would be the easiest thing to do. casting while moving might be a little more complicated.

considering they would both have the same desired result, i would prefer bioware to pursue the easier option
Da'ny - Attomm - Dan'y - Fogel
The Original Stormborn Commando Representative
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Individual's Avatar


Individual
11.08.2012 , 12:23 PM | #253
Quote: Originally Posted by AllisonBerryman View Post
Hi everyone! I talked to Austin Peckenpaugh (Senior Designer) about Commandos and Mercenaries and their situation in PvP right now, and he had this to say:

I think it's fair to say that Mercenaries and Commandos have escape issues. Admittedly, they can be very hard to catch when used correctly to hug corners, but a lot of that "escapability" falls aside when attacked by multiple melee enemies, at which point they just aren't quite tough enough to sustain without further escapes. We have plans for the future that should give Mercenaries and Commandos better escapes in PvP.
Do you guys really think escape issues are the only factor for DPS mercs commandos? They were fine before the nerfs. This is the issue with Bioware, they just don't see the issue. The main issue is we can't even burst like most of the other DPS class. Juggs, sins, muraders all have ridiculous burst now compared to mercs, yet Bioware thinks our issue is escape problems. The real issue is the DPS not the escape.

Why is escaping more important then being able to fight back? Are we suppose to be a target they can just follow around for a longer beat on continuously without us being able to do anything? Bioware fails and fails and fails to understand the underlying issue involving merc dps right now. I can't even stress this enough. No one is going to want to play this class very much until the DPS is actually addressed..

Individual's Avatar


Individual
11.08.2012 , 01:08 PM | #254
This thread is really heart breaking. The devs don't play the game, and it's pretty obvious from that response. We're really suppose to hug corners non stop and just run from melee? How do you even justify that? These guys are hitting us now for 5k hits thanks to smash and other abilities, and they have every gap closer in the world, but were suppose to just eat that and hug walls and try to escape. GIVE ME A BREAK!!!

I think it's pretty obvious that the devs aren't involved with any pvp what so ever at this point in time. Furthermore, We're not talking about the healing mercs or commandos, we're talking about the DPS mercs commandos. The healers should have the escape abilities, while the dps should be on equal levels of other dps classes. SO SO SO SO SO SO SAD of a response.

Asukaa's Avatar


Asukaa
11.08.2012 , 01:20 PM | #255
Quote: Originally Posted by Macroecon View Post
The devs reference to "escapability" shows how little they understand how pvp is played at the top levels.

Right now in a match with top players, Merc Pyro damage output trails PT Pyro, Marauder and Jugg Rage by about 30%. That is on top of having less utility to the group. AND having less survivability. Merc Arsenal is frankly as bad, with the minor exception of selected situations where you need to focus fire on heavily defended targets.

For the people that will now inevitably chime in with the "I have no problem doing as much damage as others on my Merc", just can it. I've done 800k damage on my Merc Pyro, and yes almost always score highest in wzs. But I've done better on my Mara in full Recruit gear, and that was before the Smash Monkey era. For those that think Merc dps is competitive, go ask the best ranked team on your server if they would bring along your Merc dps into a rwz. LOL.

Despite these undeniable facts, the devs continue to believe that Merc dps is too high. Why? Because their ingame meta average stats tell them so. But those meta averages are biased because the only people left playing Merc dps are the best geared, most experienced, most stubborn players who won't abandon their class. On my server I can go a full week without seeing another Merc pyro in wz. So 99% of the Merc Pyro meta averages on my server come from my results. And thus Merc Pyro meta averages on my server are much higher than for any other class. BW sees that and resolves to nerf Merc dps. And they will continue to do so until the very best Merc dps players have productivity nerfed down to be equal to the average, undergeared players in a FotM class.

BW needs to abandon the reliance on their ingame meta average stats to guide play balance. They need to balance based on best practices for each subclass. Until that happens, nothing is going to improve.
B@5t@rd!! So you're the reason we keep getting nerfed!!! Stahp it!! Seriously tho, yes I feel that dmg needs to be tweaked in our favor just a smidge. In RWZ's I see a huge difference in dmg done by VG's/Pt's. Juggs I can care less about since it's all aoe and Mara's will have a hard time out dps'ing me as I can shut most of them down. As far as escape-ability, yes, we need that too. I can get away from one person, but throw another at me and it's coytins! Most other classes have utilities that will protect them against multiple attackers and not just one. Concussion charge, cryo-grenade and our snare are all single target. But as I said in another thread, give use an ability that increases our dmg depending on how close we are to our target (ex: 30m = 0%; 10m = 15%; 4m = 30% dmg increase) and that could possibly fix the class.
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DarthBloodloss's Avatar


DarthBloodloss
11.08.2012 , 01:46 PM | #256
Quote: Originally Posted by SOULCASTER View Post
While that would be nice, I dont see that happening. I think the best we can hope for is a fix to our reserver power cell and tech override cooldowns, and use those for insta casting more.

.....that or maybe we can pray for casting bars while moving
IMO instant cast tracer and power shot is the most important change needed. That 1 single change would make the most difference while having literally no effect on PvE.

It would be an easy enhancement because the functionality is already there with Power Surge. They just need to flag Tracer and Power Shot to be always Power Surged, and then update some text here and there. 1 day fix excluding testing.

A fundamental problem with Merc is that if we want to fight back, we have to stand still and die in the process. This would eliminate the need to stand still. Standing still is for Snipers. Who uses 2 pistols and stands still?
Bloodloss Mercenary
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TUXs's Avatar


TUXs
11.08.2012 , 03:19 PM | #257
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthBloodloss View Post
IMO instant cast tracer and power shot is the most important change needed. That 1 single change would make the most difference while having literally no effect on PvE.

It would be an easy enhancement because the functionality is already there with Power Surge. They just need to flag Tracer and Power Shot to be always Power Surged, and then update some text here and there. 1 day fix excluding testing.

A fundamental problem with Merc is that if we want to fight back, we have to stand still and die in the process. This would eliminate the need to stand still. Standing still is for Snipers. Who uses 2 pistols and stands still?
I agree!!! HUGE difference in PvP, no change for PvE. The amount of damage that can be done is already limited by ammo/heat. That 'check' remains intact.
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Pefny's Avatar


Pefny
11.08.2012 , 06:01 PM | #258
First of all my impression of being merc/commando in present time.
I feel like infantry grunt when I must fight with gang of special forces guys - all got high tech gear, unbelievable skills etc. What I got? My weapon, some grenades/rockets, first aid kit, nothing much. I must hide, use natural environment (sometimes I see i'm better with hiding than some snipers/GS). Must use guerrilla tactics without fancy stealth tech. For now this AC is really tough...

Feel like common storm trooper in SW movies when all other are like Han Solo, Darth Vader, Luke etc.

But enough of my thoughts

And here my ideas:
I mostly play as pyro/assault tho I got experience in Arsenal/Gunnery too. Nice thing will gonna be instant apply of combustible gas cylinder/plasma cell like PT/Vang. Can be putted instead of useless talent that improve alacrity (for pyro/assault tree). Still thinking about ability (something instant , 30 m range but with cd). From other posts, I think that short time speed is critical to have and in arsenal/gunnery - root durning duration of unload/full auto. Also immunity for interrupts when in power barrier. Oh and get back 30 m stun!

For the end - mr Austin Peckenpaugh really thinks that we gonna hide behind corners? So be like snipers but whitout cover and any benefits, yes? Whit bunch of chanel/cast skills? I hope BW got someone a way more competent because this guy is clueless and ruin us as for this time, this AC is unplayable for most ppl.

cashogy's Avatar


cashogy
11.08.2012 , 07:39 PM | #259
impressions and anecdotes aside, if bioware wants to make 1 simple change to Merc/Commando that would have the largest impact, it would be instant cast Tracer Missile and Power Shot.

It wouldnt even require a lot of coding. All that would need to be done is change Muzzle Fluting from .5s cast reduction to 2s cast reduction. If this takes a dev any longer than 15 minutes to do, I would be very surprised. The least bioware could do for us would be to make that one change on the PTS and see what happens
Da'ny - Attomm - Dan'y - Fogel
The Original Stormborn Commando Representative
The King of Bads

Smashbrother's Avatar


Smashbrother
11.08.2012 , 07:53 PM | #260
Quote: Originally Posted by Macroecon View Post
The devs reference to "escapability" shows how little they understand how pvp is played at the top levels.

Right now in a match with top players, Merc Pyro damage output trails PT Pyro, Marauder and Jugg Rage by about 30%. That is on top of having less utility to the group. AND having less survivability. Merc Arsenal is frankly as bad, with the minor exception of selected situations where you need to focus fire on heavily defended targets.

For the people that will now inevitably chime in with the "I have no problem doing as much damage as others on my Merc", just can it. I've done 800k damage on my Merc Pyro, and yes almost always score highest in wzs. But I've done better on my Mara in full Recruit gear, and that was before the Smash Monkey era. For those that think Merc dps is competitive, go ask the best ranked team on your server if they would bring along your Merc dps into a rwz. LOL.

Despite these undeniable facts, the devs continue to believe that Merc dps is too high. Why? Because their ingame meta average stats tell them so. But those meta averages are biased because the only people left playing Merc dps are the best geared, most experienced, most stubborn players who won't abandon their class. On my server I can go a full week without seeing another Merc pyro in wz. So 99% of the Merc Pyro meta averages on my server come from my results. And thus Merc Pyro meta averages on my server are much higher than for any other class. BW sees that and resolves to nerf Merc dps. And they will continue to do so until the very best Merc dps players have productivity nerfed down to be equal to the average, undergeared players in a FotM class.

BW needs to abandon the reliance on their ingame meta average stats to guide play balance. They need to balance based on best practices for each subclass. Until that happens, nothing is going to improve.
The commando's dps is predicated on the fact that you have to not be attacked, but currently we have no way to escape effectively when attacked in order to dps. But if a commando is allowed to dps effectively, we're essentially close to the top of the totem pole.