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BW, do you ever plan on addressing DPS Mercs/Commandos PvP-wise?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
BW, do you ever plan on addressing DPS Mercs/Commandos PvP-wise?
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DariusCalera's Avatar


DariusCalera
06.01.2013 , 02:02 AM | #2401
Quote: Originally Posted by Nebdar View Post
Mercenary Heavy Armour need long cooldown defense abilities because they should manage 1v1 fights better then their fellow Healers(of course we died in PvP before 2.0 WZ because of lack of mobility/escape skill and ofc the gear)
So for Mercenary/Commando the Heavy armor put's the Devs in dilemma.They can't give too much Defense/ Tanking abilities because that could make the other Tanks classes look less appealing or the other healing classes less sturdy.
so no more Healing except the periodic one with perfectly fits with stealth escape. As i have seen the resource management for this class is pretty damn good but i have to play more with this class to be more accurate.
Except that having heavy armor in pvp means exactly nothing unless you are a tank. Even then it has more to do with your skills and how they buff the armor than the armor itself.

Quote: Originally Posted by Nebdar View Post
End finally Mercenary if we look closely on Bodyguard spec i can see(and hopefully you too) that this healing class is designed to Heal yourself and one or two group mates effectively. The Kolto Shell if we could spam it on our whole group we would be better group healers, but this is designed to protect mostly us (our own force barrier). Then there is NEW Kolto Overload which gives us an incredible 6 sec almost immortality and when you add Energy Shield and Hydraulic Overrides. There is also an ability to increase healing when Energy Shield is on. So all of those mentioned abilities are mostly designed to keep us alive.
And there comes the Combat Support Gas Cylinder it gives us additional damage reduction but requires 30 charges to use it and in PvP madness it is very hard for me to gather is much and even when i can use it , i don't use because i have in mind that if i spoil it right now the next one will take ages to build up. And without us using the Supercharged Gas when can be as effective as other Healers. Here you also must take close look on Supercharged Gas description as it boost damage and healing abilities and this proves that by design we are always:

HEALER / DPS NO MATTER WHAT SPECIALIZATION WE WILL TAKE WE ARE SUPPORT CLASS MIX NEITHER EXCELLENT AT HEALING OR DPS

So by design we can't be better healers because that would made other classes the worse choice, and neither we can be DPS because other classes are dedicated to do just that.

So we and other must understand the role of Mercenary / Commando as Heavy Universal Support and as a Support we must always come with someone to fully use our skills we are not some class that alone can make huge difference. And we can't see WZ as series on 1 vs 1 fights, you fight as a team . When we understand class roles in group fighting and other group mates also then we can talk about what is overpowered underpowered

I am non ranked PvP player and love BH PvP especially after bolster and 2.0 changes i am still lvl 51 so there is much to learn. But from my experience when some Tank gives me protection/guard along with one DPS and i am supporting them with Heal/DPS/Stuns and they are Helping me in those situation i can see, feel and like the role that we are designed to have.
This section brings us right back to what this thread is still about: Why bring a merc/mando as a healer or dps if one of the other classes does it better?

Nebdar's Avatar


Nebdar
06.01.2013 , 03:11 AM | #2402
Thanks for reading

Quote: Originally Posted by DariusCalera View Post
Except that having heavy armor in pvp means exactly nothing unless you are a tank. Even then it has more to do with your skills and how they buff the armor than the armor itself.



This section brings us right back to what this thread is still about: Why bring a merc/mando as a healer or dps if one of the other classes does it better?
First Heavy armor does bring some protection about 1 or 2 more hits to take you down in 1vs fight, enough time to turn on your defense abilities.

The Second the flaw of Mercenary Command is in design and people understanding the specific of this design. We have community of Big Numbers will tell you the truth, someone can say the bigger the numbers the better class. I say NO. If i healer has big numbers at the end of WZ that means few things
1) your group consist mainly with medium light armor character the soak more damage thous need more healing
2) enemy group had a high number of DPS
3) me s no healer i always remember to award the healer who saved my life more then those that just refilled m health
4) THe healer was weal guarded or enemy group doesn't know how to interrupt an healer or the healing player is just good with positioning and has luck to be invisible
So not the number are so important as the usefulness so...
When Mercenary/ Commandos are useful in PvP As a Heavy Support always HEAL/DPS IT IS best to team up with heavy armored tanks/dps. The Tank/DPS classes doesn't require so much healing and need sometimes that extra DPS burst that our classes can provide all of that help in exchange for them to guard/protect us.

As healers we are not able to Heal those medium/light armor classes. Just look on our Supercharged Gas ability instead like other healing classes it gives bonuses to healing abilities in our cases it gives us reduced cool down reduced cost of damage and healing abilities.

So as sorcerer and operative can only heal good when spec with dps they will not help you, we can heal throw electro net to catch those slippery Sages/Scoundrels or use our Death from above in very common situation when tank is surrounded by 3 melee or more. WE are designed to give proof to these words "that sometimes (offense)DPSing the best Healing (defense)" and as ranged class we an do that with anyone in our line of sight. people need to L2P with this class and understand it your team mates also
RED ECLIPSE -> YOUR NEW BEST SERVER
BYE TOFN
Sweet'blade Oddajmisie
Nebdul Nebdana

PerinnAybara's Avatar


PerinnAybara
06.01.2013 , 06:09 AM | #2403
Quote: Originally Posted by Nebdar View Post
Thanks for reading



First Heavy armor does bring some protection about 1 or 2 more hits to take you down in 1vs fight, enough time to turn on your defense abilities.

The Second the flaw of Mercenary Command is in design and people understanding the specific of this design. We have community of Big Numbers will tell you the truth, someone can say the bigger the numbers the better class. I say NO. If i healer has big numbers at the end of WZ that means few things
1) your group consist mainly with medium light armor character the soak more damage thous need more healing
2) enemy group had a high number of DPS
3) me s no healer i always remember to award the healer who saved my life more then those that just refilled m health
4) THe healer was weal guarded or enemy group doesn't know how to interrupt an healer or the healing player is just good with positioning and has luck to be invisible
So not the number are so important as the usefulness so...
When Mercenary/ Commandos are useful in PvP As a Heavy Support always HEAL/DPS IT IS best to team up with heavy armored tanks/dps. The Tank/DPS classes doesn't require so much healing and need sometimes that extra DPS burst that our classes can provide all of that help in exchange for them to guard/protect us.

As healers we are not able to Heal those medium/light armor classes. Just look on our Supercharged Gas ability instead like other healing classes it gives bonuses to healing abilities in our cases it gives us reduced cool down reduced cost of damage and healing abilities.

So as sorcerer and operative can only heal good when spec with dps they will not help you, we can heal throw electro net to catch those slippery Sages/Scoundrels or use our Death from above in very common situation when tank is surrounded by 3 melee or more. WE are designed to give proof to these words "that sometimes (offense)DPSing the best Healing (defense)" and as ranged class we an do that with anyone in our line of sight. people need to L2P with this class and understand it your team mates also
Are you sure that you don't need to learn to play? You just stated that you're level 51, and that you're not 55. That you've never done ranked? Perhaps the misconception lies with you.

Fact is, if an operative is unkillable and can do 1500 healing per second while being focused, and 2000 hps when not, while a merc can only do 800-1000 while being focused and 1500 if not, then people will take two operatives. Keeping people up or keeping oneself up means that your other dps will do more damage.

They aren't reliant on cast heals like we are, their defensives allow them to dodge execute abilities, and they can completely relocate if being focused. You're sadly mistaken about the balance of the game when it comes to healing.

As for heavy armor, think about this. Elemental attacks completely bypass armor, carnage marauders completely bypass armor. To make up for light armor, sorcerers have 10% dodge. Or how snipers have an additional 20% defences under cover. Or operatives can roll now. As for the slow argument to the roll, how many tech slows does a merc have? And how many of them are ranged? And how many of them are uncleansable by an operative? What about the fact that operative healers can't be leapt to while healing? Cover is off the gcd. (obliterate still works) That removes one of the interrupts and gap closers that a merc has to deal with every single darn time.

When it comes to survivability the top survivability classes aren't necessarily the ones with heavy armor.
Character: Mathrim Cauthon, 50 Mercenary on Prophecy of the Five

SpaniardInfinity's Avatar


SpaniardInfinity
06.01.2013 , 09:09 AM | #2404
Quote: Originally Posted by PerinnAybara View Post
Fact is, if an operative is unkillable and can do 1500 healing per second while being focused, and 2000 hps when not, while a merc can only do 800-1000 while being focused and 1500 if not, then people will take two operatives. Keeping people up or keeping oneself up means that your other dps will do more damage..
I think a huge part of the problem here is that a lot of people try to put Commando/Mercenary healers into a role they aren't designed for. Sages are the game's best group healer, have many tools, and are also healing glass cannons. Scoundrels are the kings of PVP healing because they have the luxury of being instant-cast (and don't go saying "oh those instants won't save anyone" -- the fact that they are instant makes them incredibly valuable) plus having burst healing potential on short cooldown. That's not even considering all their utility. For a lot of this community, it seems then that Commando/Mercenary has no place. It can neither group heal effectively or burst heal as regularly. Not every team is going to see the value of a sustainable healer, and one that can take a tremendous beating. The way I like to think of Commando/Mercenary healers is that they are anchors: they put their foot in the door and don't take it out until their team throws the door wide open.

If you are looking just at face value and want big fat numbers, you will see Sage and Scoundrel have success way before a Commando/Mercenary. But I have to say you got to be exaggerating if you are only doing 800-1000 HPS under pressure and 1500 HPS when unmolested. Quite frankly, you are doing something wrong if that's the case. Commando/Mercenary can do the same numbers as Sage/Scoundrel, but you will arguably need to put more effort in. It is possible. I've seen it. I've done it. As a matter of fact, I usually sit between 1400 DPS and 2000 HPS against high damage teams. In ranked, my team either ran one Commando and one Scoundrel or one of each healer. In just about every single one of those matches, the healers were always within +/- 100k of each other. And yeah, that includes post-2.0. Are those numbers harder to achieve? Yes. If anything, that's where the imbalance lies. There could be a few tweaks here and there (I'd still love for my damn Tech Override to be on a minute cooldown) but the class is nowhere near as broken as people make it out to be. Maybe its "broken" in your team's lineup, but players tend to take the path of least resistance. The teams who do give it the chance will recognize they have a very reliable and underrated healer on their team. And when played right, the class absolutely can and will put up very similar numbers as any of the other healers. More than likely, they'll do it with almost no deaths.
Aux "Spaniard" Wargarde (Rank 2400+ Combat Medic) | Reighner the Relentless (Conqueror Bodyguard)
The Generalissimo Legacy
<Uncensored>

foxmob's Avatar


foxmob
06.01.2013 , 02:39 PM | #2405
Quote: Originally Posted by SpaniardInfinity View Post
Commando/Mercenary can do the same numbers as Sage/Scoundrel, but you will arguably need to put more effort in. It is possible. I've seen it. I've done it. As a matter of fact, I usually sit between 1400 DPS and 2000 HPS against high damage teams. In ranked, my team either ran one Commando and one Scoundrel or one of each healer. In just about every single one of those matches, the healers were always within +/- 100k of each other. And yeah, that includes post-2.0. Are those numbers harder to achieve? Yes. If anything, that's where the imbalance lies.
bear in mind that Aux is arguably the best mando healer on our server and has been since the last merger (when I arrived). There are only a handful of mercs/mandos who can do what he's talking about (hang with highly skilled sages/scoundrels), and his team/guild is the most tactically advanced/sound on the server (strat/discipline). I'm not sure he didn't say as much in his post. I just thought I'd reiterate that he's doing more with less and under optimal conditions (team-wise).

from a dps standpoint, the mando healer is like a watchman sent trying to keep up with a smasher on the dps charts. better survivability, but the raw numbers are WAY easier on the smasher.

personally, I think mando healing is fine in 2.0. I would rather see scoundrels nerfed (which will get me flamed), but think about it: healing is already too high in 2.0. do you really want to buff another heal class or make them smash-like simple to churn out numbers? that is the fundamental difference between mandos and the other heals: ease of use. knock down the cast heal potency of the scoundrel. this will reestablish the mando as king of single target healing. the scoundrel can still move and heal and maintain his numerous escapes. he just wouldn't have the focused, single target "burst" that he does now if he just stands there and casts (with that crazy 30% < proc).

regarding some of the electro net chatter, please leave the cd alone. that abil is VERY potent. and if there's a mando dps and healer in ops, the practical cd is a hell of a lot shorter than 90s.

I'm for tech override cd reduction, but I would prefer reserve power cell instead....just because I run into major ammo issues if I do any dps but hammer shot or charged bolt (during supercharger). not sure how much this matters in a rated match, but since rated is so damn rare....
Krackerjack/Deinon/Antiphon
JC -- Harb -- TEH

BoskiCesiu's Avatar


BoskiCesiu
06.01.2013 , 02:43 PM | #2406
I play commando from the start the game.
I was waiting for revamp this class.... Play commando on PvP is terrible. Death - respawn - death...
I paid BW almost two years. Now I canceled my subscription and I leave - my patience is over.

Suryi's Avatar


Suryi
06.01.2013 , 04:59 PM | #2407
Quote: Originally Posted by SpaniardInfinity View Post
. As a matter of fact, I usually sit between 1400 DPS and 2000 HPS against high damage teams.
Teach me
Nhilas - Combat Medic Commando
Junkbox - Bodyguard Mercenary

PerinnAybara's Avatar


PerinnAybara
06.01.2013 , 09:42 PM | #2408
To be honest I want to heal without 300 latency with my beast computer in the us.

I was averaging 800 hps in a rated match under focus in 1.7 while I was still in the US with a crappy laptop so it would be nice to see the change now that I can play without any graphical errors.
Character: Mathrim Cauthon, 50 Mercenary on Prophecy of the Five

Nebdar's Avatar


Nebdar
06.01.2013 , 10:17 PM | #2409
Quote: Originally Posted by BoskiCesiu View Post
I play commando from the start the game.
I was waiting for revamp this class.... Play commando on PvP is terrible. Death - respawn - death...
I paid BW almost two years. Now I canceled my subscription and I leave - my patience is over.
if you want this type of changes http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKHvwJjT12w

Then they are not coming back, and i don't want personally to play such type commando as it is clearly OP and breaks all the balance
RED ECLIPSE -> YOUR NEW BEST SERVER
BYE TOFN
Sweet'blade Oddajmisie
Nebdul Nebdana

DariusCalera's Avatar


DariusCalera
06.01.2013 , 10:40 PM | #2410
Quote: Originally Posted by Nebdar View Post
if you want this type of changes http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKHvwJjT12w

Then they are not coming back, and i don't want personally to play such type commando as it is clearly OP and breaks all the balance
To be fair, those players trying to kill the commando apparently did not know how to use an interrupt.

Can't really call a class OP by using an example of skilled players going up against unskilled ones.