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BW, do you ever plan on addressing DPS Mercs/Commandos PvP-wise?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
BW, do you ever plan on addressing DPS Mercs/Commandos PvP-wise?
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Astarica's Avatar


Astarica
05.05.2013 , 11:17 PM | #2241
It's clear in 2.0 crits are supposed to be like winning the lottery, unless you're a Smasher.

Macroeconomics's Avatar


Macroeconomics
05.05.2013 , 11:32 PM | #2242
Quote: Originally Posted by Astarica View Post
On the issue of Electro Net, the most powerful defensive ability of a Sage/Op healer is not a CD or a teammate. It's the ability to turn around a corner and instantly lose every ranged DPS and about half of the melee DPS. They accomplish this with Force Speed/Scamper. These two low/no CD abilities is generally sufficient to escape.
True, true , true. Hence the outright superiority of good healers over good dps in the current game.

Quote: Originally Posted by Astarica View Post
Electro Net takes away all 4 of those options, forcing the healer to stand still...The only way to get out of Electro Net is a friendly pull but you should have your own pull enemy to deal with that.
False and false. No character is forced to stand still with EN on him. In fact tanks and dps Juggs can basically ignore it. And every other character can still move for about half the duration of the EN without too much difficulty. But - they need to do that on the back half of the EN duration window. Moving around for the first half of that window involves taking a lot more damage. Thus EN, just like the entire Arsenal platorm in 2.0, and indeed Merc as a whole in the 1.2-1.4 era, is a weapon that relies on bad opponents to succeed. Against strong opponents that understand their class and other classes, EN is not going to get you a win, much less be a "I win" button. Simply put, people who think that are not a subset of the "strong opponents" category.

And no, a friendly pull is not the only way to get out of Electronet. In fact, it doesn't get you out of ElectroNet at all...unlike other methods that do...

Astarica's Avatar


Astarica
05.05.2013 , 11:50 PM | #2243
Quote: Originally Posted by Macroeconomics View Post
False and false. No character is forced to stand still with EN on him. In fact tanks and dps Juggs can basically ignore it. And every other character can still move for about half the duration of the EN without too much difficulty. But - they need to do that on the back half of the EN duration window. Moving around for the first half of that window involves taking a lot more damage. Thus EN, just like the entire Arsenal platorm in 2.0, and indeed Merc as a whole in the 1.2-1.4 era, is a weapon that relies on bad opponents to succeed. Against strong opponents that understand their class and other classes, EN is not going to get you a win, much less be a "I win" button. Simply put, people who think that are not a subset of the "strong opponents" category.

And no, a friendly pull is not the only way to get out of Electronet. In fact, it doesn't get you out of ElectroNet at all...unlike other methods that do...
I said healers not other DPS. Electro Net is of limited use against DPS in any large scale fight just because chances are someone else is going to be close enough for them to attack, and it's also useless on any grapple capable class unless no other player besides the Merc is within 30m. But with healer being overwhelming strong in the current metagame, there's really no point to consider the drawback of an ability that's weak against non-healers when it's absolutely brutal against healers (Op/Sorc at least). Sure, the healer can still move, but you're very unlikely to clear a corner while moving 50%, and you obviously won't be losing any melee while moving away from them at 50% speed. Therefore they will generally take all the DPS you have planned for that healer, In fact they'd be better off not moving because if you can't clear a corner, you might as well not move as this at least reduces the damage from the Net. You sure aren't avoiding any DPS while slowly crawling your way to a corner.

Sure there are plenty of times where a Net didn't kill a healer. Either the enemy side had way more healing than we anticipated, or our DPS was simply not paying attention (or even aware that a healer is netted). In the former case it's likely nothing was going to kill that healer, and the latter case you can't say an ability is weak just because your team didn't pay attention.

Le_Spiff's Avatar


Le_Spiff
05.06.2013 , 12:02 AM | #2244
It'd be great if electro net stopped charges.
The Bastion - PT Daecon 55
The Harbinger - PT Chithon 55 Merc Deacon 55 Mara Loong'Dragon 55 Sin Daemon 55

Macroeconomics's Avatar


Macroeconomics
05.06.2013 , 12:41 AM | #2245
Quote: Originally Posted by Astarica View Post
I said healers not other DPS...Sure, the healer can still move, but you're very unlikely to clear a corner while moving 50%, and you obviously won't be losing any melee while moving away from them at 50% speed.
You did. And I stated that any class including healers could move half the time while under ElectroNet without a lot of difficulty. You might be able to lose a melee. You can definitely LoS a ranged attacker. And as any good healer, even one under EN, will require two dps to take down (double that number if he has guard, which he will on a good team), some of his attackers are highly likely to be ranged and thus LoSed.

Quote: Originally Posted by Astarica View Post
Sure there are plenty of times where a Net didn't kill a healer. Either the enemy side had way more healing than we anticipated, or our DPS was simply not paying attention (or even aware that a healer is netted).
You are forgetting the main reason why EN fails. Why vs. a good healer, 90% of the time EN will not kill him.

Quote: Originally Posted by Le_Spiff View Post
It'd be great if electro net stopped charges.
It does.

Astarica's Avatar


Astarica
05.06.2013 , 12:57 AM | #2246
Right now healers are very hard to kill, period. Even with 4 DPS all on the same guy, you've something like 10% chance of actually killing a strong, guarded healer if he's not netted. Force Speed/Scamper will foil most attempts, and Vanish/Force Barrier definitely stops just about any focus fire attempt. Having a netted healer increases the probability of success greatly, and no other ability comes close. It's 'Iwin' in the sense that it's your best shot at killing a healer at all, and killing the healer wins you games. Yes healing is overpowered to the point that a netted healer still has a high chance of survival, but try to kill that healer without the net. They'll LoS you all day long. I've spent entire matches chasing a healer around a pillar with nothing to show for it. If they're netted, at least they can't ever lose me on the pillars while they're netted. Is that enough to take them down? I don't know, but I sure aren't taking them down when they can lose me on the pillars.

Macroeconomics's Avatar


Macroeconomics
05.06.2013 , 01:22 AM | #2247
Quote: Originally Posted by Astarica View Post
Right now healers are very hard to kill, period. Even with 4 DPS all on the same guy, you've something like 10% chance of actually killing a strong, guarded healer if he's not netted...Having a netted healer increases the probability of success greatly, and no other ability comes close. It's 'Iwin' in the sense that it's your best shot at killing a healer at all
I don't have an issue with the first part of your statement. But saying that EN is a "I win" button when in fact it is a "force the healer to save his cc breaker" button is just wrong. Let's recall that this line of discussion first began when you stated that EN would allow you to kill an enemy healer unless "the enemy has a guard and 2 other healer healing him". I simply dispute that.

Any good ranked team with 2 healers and a guard fighting at the main node will shrug off any EN usage. Even in a more advantaged scenario involving 4 attacking dps with EN available vs. 4 defenders (2 dps, a tank and a healer with the healer not having his cc breaker), a good ranked team will not be bothered by EN. Your 4 attacking dps are busy attacking the ElectroNet-ed, non-moving healer with a -30% taunt penalty. Which means you effectively have 2.8 attackers. And only 1.4 attackers effectively burning though to the healer due to guard. The healer can heal through that. The guard pops his defensive CDs and lives. And 9 seconds later you find those two enemy dps killed or are soon to kill one of your dps. Which means you've lost the battle.

Bottom line, against good opponents, EN is of negligible value. What you want to do with EN is find a weak opponent whom over extends himself. Then EN will let you kill him faster than you normally would. That is all EN does.

Astarica's Avatar


Astarica
05.06.2013 , 01:43 AM | #2248
Quote: Originally Posted by Macroeconomics View Post
I don't have an issue with the first part of your statement. But saying that EN is a "I win" button when in fact it is a "force the healer to save his cc breaker" button is just wrong. Let's recall that this line of discussion first began when you stated that EN would allow you to kill an enemy healer unless "the enemy has a guard and 2 other healer healing him". I simply dispute that.

Any good ranked team with 2 healers and a guard fighting at the main node will shrug off any EN usage. Even in a more advantaged scenario involving 4 attacking dps with EN available vs. 4 defenders (2 dps, a tank and a healer with the healer not having his cc breaker), a good ranked team will not be bothered by EN. Your 4 attacking dps are busy attacking the ElectroNet-ed, non-moving healer with a -30% taunt penalty. Which means you effectively have 2.8 attackers. And only 1.4 attackers effectively burning though to the healer due to guard. The healer can heal through that. The guard pops his defensive CDs and lives. And 9 seconds later you find those two enemy dps killed or are soon to kill one of your dps. Which means you've lost the battle.

Bottom line, against good opponents, EN is of negligible value. What you want to do with EN is find a weak opponent whom over extends himself. Then EN will let you kill him faster than you normally would. That is all EN does.
You are putting way too much faith in taunt. The only way taunt can work like you say is if all the attackers are melee. If they're a mixed of ranged/melee, there's no way you can taunt them all. Further, to imply you have your taunts up says that apparently the DPS output of these guys was so feeble that the tank did not felt pressured to use taunt at every opportunity. In that case, if the DPS output was not enough to bother the healer at all prior to the Electro Net, of course adding the Electro Net still isn't going to be enough. I don't know why you even bring up issues like enemy DPS attacking your DPS, as if enemy DPS normally just sit around and do nothing instead.

Assuming the two team have equal composition, of course there's a healer somewhere back there to ensure those 4 DPS don't just instantly die. We're not talking about an isolated battle of 4 DPS versus healer + tank + 2 DPS. The latter is almost certainly going to win just because the other side don't have a healer. We're talking about what happens in the middle of a battle if you send 4 DPS after a netted healer. The side with the 4 DPS still have their healer/tank around to do whatever they'd normally do. Nobody is saying EN is enough for you to take a team with no healers and defeat a team with 1 (or more).

Macroeconomics's Avatar


Macroeconomics
05.06.2013 , 01:59 AM | #2249
Your claim was that EN would give you a kill on a healer unless that healer had a tank AND two other healers healing him. It's just not true. I reduced your recipe to a single tank and a single healer, and showed that if you tunnel vision with your 4 dps on the healer who has been ElectroNet-ed, you are hurting YOURSELF, not the enemy.

And about taunts. No, 4 dps aren't going to pressure an enemy team. Not a good one. That's part of the problem with high level pvp in this game. The defense is so favored over the attack that the defending tank doesn't need to use his defensive CDs, until he senses the attackers are trying to burst. Same with the healer. And others besides the tank can taunt. Your most popular dps subclass (assassins) can taunt. And so actually, yes, once a good enemy team sees that your dps are going through a burst phase, your dps are more likely than not to be taunted.

Quote: Originally Posted by Astarica View Post
Assuming the two team have equal composition, of course there's a healer somewhere back there to ensure those 4 DPS don't just instantly die. We're not talking about an isolated battle of 4 DPS versus healer + tank + 2 DPS.
Actually I was talking about an isolated battle of 4 DPS vs. heal, tank & 2 dps. But if you are going to add a healer to the attacking squad, then it is only appropriate to remove a dps from that squad. Which makes the chances of penetrating the enemy healer's defenses during the 9 sec duration of EN even worse. I specifically set that scenario up as the best possible for the attackers to have a chance of generating a healer kill during the 9 sec duration of EN. And it's not a good probability. Subtracting dps from the attacking squad just makes those chances worse. Sure, swapping a healer for a dps on the attack squad improves the chances that the attackers can maintain an equilibrium. But if that's the result, what effect did EN have? None. Which is the point isn't it?

ArchangelLBC's Avatar


ArchangelLBC
05.06.2013 , 08:44 PM | #2250
Long story short: EN is really nice, but ultimately, in any kind of competitive PVP environment, EN is probably not going to help you kill someone you weren't already going to kill.

Actually I think the ability has a lot more application in smaller scale encounters, like going 2v1 on an off node being solo guarded, using Enet to stop a solo guard from stealthing out to prolong the engagement and stall a bit longer, but the thing there is those are the exact situations where DPS commandos are actually very ill favored. We're overall much better in the big scale encounters where, as mentioned, EN has much less ability to make an impact. Especially on a 90s cooldown.
In update 2.9 the game will simply uninstall itself for you.

-Wnd