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BW, do you ever plan on addressing DPS Mercs/Commandos PvP-wise?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
BW, do you ever plan on addressing DPS Mercs/Commandos PvP-wise?
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thesadplanet's Avatar


thesadplanet
03.28.2013 , 10:09 AM | #1761
Quote: Originally Posted by Jherad View Post
Again, I don't believe you will. But have fun trying.
I play on your server and play a lot of ranked pvp and I honestly have to say that if the 2.0 changes go into effect, mercs will be absolutely viable for ranked pvp.

One of the most important, though least discussed facets of what makes a class good in ranked is versatility. Classes which can respec to heals or tank are extremely valuable for things like huttball or voidstar defense.

Previously, mercs were a liability in hutball, but they now have hydraulic overrides. an ability which actually makes them viable ball carriers.

Electronet, despite being on a long cooldown, could be a huge help in terms of burning down targets. In ranked, when you are fighting in a large battle, one kill could make all the difference and electronet is absolutely a game changing ability.

Additionally, being able to respec to a very durable healing tree as a third healer in void star defense is absolutely massive. the amount of burst healing a merc can do will make it very difficult to kill other healers, while the merc has its own temporary "Do Not Die Button".

I'm not saying that mercs are totally necessary or required in ranked, but to say that there is no reason to bring one is highly inaccurate imo.

texoc's Avatar


texoc
03.28.2013 , 10:11 AM | #1762
Quote: Originally Posted by thesadplanet View Post
I play on your server and play a lot of ranked pvp and I honestly have to say that if the 2.0 changes go into effect, mercs will be absolutely viable for ranked pvp.

One of the most important, though least discussed facets of what makes a class good in ranked is versatility. Classes which can respec to heals or tank are extremely valuable for things like huttball or voidstar defense.

Previously, mercs were a liability in hutball, but they now have hydraulic overrides. an ability which actually makes them viable ball carriers.

Electronet, despite being on a long cooldown, could be a huge help in terms of burning down targets. In ranked, when you are fighting in a large battle, one kill could make all the difference and electronet is absolutely a game changing ability.

Additionally, being able to respec to a very durable healing tree as a third healer in void star defense is absolutely massive. the amount of burst healing a merc can do will make it very difficult to kill other healers, while the merc has its own temporary "Do Not Die Button".

I'm not saying that mercs are totally necessary or required in ranked, but to say that there is no reason to bring one is highly inaccurate imo.
Thank god, there is 1 player that understands me....
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Ossos's Avatar


Ossos
03.28.2013 , 10:14 AM | #1763
Quote: Originally Posted by thesadplanet View Post
I play on your server and play a lot of ranked pvp and I honestly have to say that if the 2.0 changes go into effect, mercs will be absolutely viable for ranked pvp.

One of the most important, though least discussed facets of what makes a class good in ranked is versatility. Classes which can respec to heals or tank are extremely valuable for things like huttball or voidstar defense.

Previously, mercs were a liability in hutball, but they now have hydraulic overrides. an ability which actually makes them viable ball carriers.

Electronet, despite being on a long cooldown, could be a huge help in terms of burning down targets. In ranked, when you are fighting in a large battle, one kill could make all the difference and electronet is absolutely a game changing ability.

Additionally, being able to respec to a very durable healing tree as a third healer in void star defense is absolutely massive. the amount of burst healing a merc can do will make it very difficult to kill other healers, while the merc has its own temporary "Do Not Die Button".

I'm not saying that mercs are totally necessary or required in ranked, but to say that there is no reason to bring one is highly inaccurate imo.
The problem is that a GS/Sniper (I compare the two because they booth have to self-root to bust out the dmg i.e. they are turrets) is everything that a DPS Merc/Comm is and more. They can also offer more mitigation and have more tricks in the ol' bag. So far the only thing differentiating the two classes is that the GS/Sniper does ton more damage.
Preventing Hackers and Exploiters from ruining the game is not a priority. Preventing you from mentioning the fact that they exist and go unpunished is.

thesadplanet's Avatar


thesadplanet
03.28.2013 , 10:19 AM | #1764
Quote: Originally Posted by Ossos View Post
The problem is that a GS/Sniper is everything that a DPS Merc/Comm is and more. They can also offer more mitigation and have more tricks in the ol' bag. So far the only thing differentiating the two classes is that the GS/Sniper does ton more damage.
Snipers don't have offheals/a battle rez/a durable healing spec to respec to
Snipers are the weakest huttball class in the game, as opposed to mercs, who actually have an ability to help them carry the ball
Snipers don't have an ability like electro net, which can completely change the course of a game by using it to make a healer extremely vulnerable.

Snipers are a great class to have in ranked pvp, but to say that the only difference between a slinger/sniper and a merc is damage output its ridiculous.

oredith's Avatar


oredith
03.28.2013 , 10:28 AM | #1765
Quote: Originally Posted by texoc View Post
Ever thought about fake casting??


jeeez....
lol, are you seriously suggesting juking a tracer missile cast? in a game where there's way more interrupts than in WoW?

i used to try to bait people to interrupt my heals, but quickly realized that it was useless because they'll just interrupt with something else.

before you point out that i have a PT, my original main was a merc
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Ossos's Avatar


Ossos
03.28.2013 , 10:40 AM | #1766
Quote: Originally Posted by thesadplanet View Post
Snipers don't have offheals/a battle rez/a durable healing spec to respec to
Snipers are the weakest huttball class in the game, as opposed to mercs, who actually have an ability to help them carry the ball
Snipers don't have an ability like electro net, which can completely change the course of a game by using it to make a healer extremely vulnerable.

Snipers are a great class to have in ranked pvp, but to say that the only difference between a slinger/sniper and a merc is damage output its ridiculous.
You're right. I should have said that the Merc/Commando is able to mitigate less damge, is far more squishy, and is less able to defend itself than a Sniper/GS...and they're both turrets with Merc/Comms do far less damage.

Oh, and Snipers/GSs can root players, knock players back, and stun them about 3x more than Merc/Comms can. This is why when there's an incoming Maurader...I sigh because it's seconds I have to take out of the game to blast them down versus moving that ball forward. I don't sigh because it's certain death...unlike some classes.

You know what a GS/Sniper can do to mitigate 100% of incoming damge quickly that a Merc/Comm can't?

Kill the source of that incoming damge.

Don't get me wrong, I WANT to play a Commando...badly. It's just that they bring nothing to the table outside of heals...that every other healer type does better.
Preventing Hackers and Exploiters from ruining the game is not a priority. Preventing you from mentioning the fact that they exist and go unpunished is.

SpaniardInfinity's Avatar


SpaniardInfinity
03.28.2013 , 10:41 AM | #1767
Quote: Originally Posted by thesadplanet View Post
I play on your server and play a lot of ranked pvp and I honestly have to say that if the 2.0 changes go into effect, mercs will be absolutely viable for ranked pvp.

One of the most important, though least discussed facets of what makes a class good in ranked is versatility. Classes which can respec to heals or tank are extremely valuable for things like huttball or voidstar defense.

Previously, mercs were a liability in hutball, but they now have hydraulic overrides. an ability which actually makes them viable ball carriers.

Electronet, despite being on a long cooldown, could be a huge help in terms of burning down targets. In ranked, when you are fighting in a large battle, one kill could make all the difference and electronet is absolutely a game changing ability.

Additionally, being able to respec to a very durable healing tree as a third healer in void star defense is absolutely massive. the amount of burst healing a merc can do will make it very difficult to kill other healers, while the merc has its own temporary "Do Not Die Button".

I'm not saying that mercs are totally necessary or required in ranked, but to say that there is no reason to bring one is highly inaccurate imo.
All I can say is it remains to be seen. Time will tell. I agree with what you're saying good sir (or madam) and it would be nice to see it pan out so optimistically. But we've also been waiting for a year -- literally a year -- to see changes to the class. Our last major balancing was April 2012 (April 12th to be exact) and 2.0 launches April 2013 (April 14th to be exact). I can't be the only one that doesn't want to spend $155 on a subscription just to see if Bioware finally resolves the Commando/Mercenary problems in April 2014.

Trust me, I hope you are right. Otherwise Bioware might have spent millions on one of the most successful trolling schemes I've ever seen.
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thesadplanet's Avatar


thesadplanet
03.28.2013 , 11:04 AM | #1768
Quote: Originally Posted by Ossos View Post
You're right. I should have said that the Merc/Commando is able to mitigate less damge, is far more squishy, and is less able to defend itself than a Sniper/GS...and they're both turrets with Merc/Comms do far less damage.

Oh, and Snipers/GSs can root players, knock players back, and stun them about 3x more than Merc/Comms can. This is why when there's an incoming Maurader...I sigh because it's seconds I have to take out of the game to blast them down versus moving that ball forward. I don't sigh because it's certain death...unlike some classes.

You know what a GS/Sniper can do to mitigate 100% of incoming damge quickly that a Merc/Comm can't?

Kill the source of that incoming damge.

Don't get me wrong, I WANT to play a Commando...badly. It's just that they bring nothing to the table outside of heals...that every other healer type does better.
Snipers are good, no arguing that, one might even say that as of right now they are overtuned, especially lethality, which is putting out ridiculous numbers, though much of that can be explained due to PTS gear disparity and the nature of the class (AOE dot spec, lethality operatives were putting up insane numbers as well but you would never want to bring one of those to ranked)

But there is no rule saying you must bring either a sniper or a merc. Its not out of the question to bring both. I listed a few things which can potentially make mercs a valuable asset in ranked pvp, things which snipers do not offer and you basically ignored them.

I will admit that I'm not an expert at mercenary or sniper. But from an outsiders perspective looking in, it looks like mercenaries have a ton of tools that will make them a pain to kill in 2.0. They already had some decent tools, such as the best knockback in the game, a decent insta cast heal, as well as some more typical stuff like stuns and a 30m cc. But now with hydraulic overrides and kolto bomb, as well as being a heavy armor class, they are going to be a pain to take down.

oredith's Avatar


oredith
03.28.2013 , 11:16 AM | #1769
Quote: Originally Posted by thesadplanet View Post
But there is no rule saying you must bring either a sniper or a merc.
there's also no rule that you have to run in a sprint race, but if you want a chance to win, you pretty much have to. sniper is to running, as merc is to walking.

Quote: Originally Posted by thesadplanet View Post
But from an outsiders perspective looking in, it looks like mercenaries have a ton of tools that will make them a pain to kill in 2.0. They already had some decent tools, such as the best knockback in the game
you have obviously never been knocked back and rooted by a sniper then? not to mention a sniper can be immune to gap closers, eliminating a need to knockback in the first place.
Quote: Originally Posted by thesadplanet View Post
a decent insta cast heal
kolto missile? without the bodyguard talents, it's not going to heal you any more than what a dps will do to you in the same GCD. basically, you just gave the other guy a free global to hit you.
Quote: Originally Posted by thesadplanet View Post
as well as some more typical stuff like stuns and a 30m cc.
not sure exactly what you're referring to here, but if you're thinking of electro-dart, that was nerfed to 10m as part of the pyro nerf.
Quote: Originally Posted by thesadplanet View Post
But now with hydraulic overrides and kolto bomb, as well as being a heavy armor class, they are going to be a pain to take down.
hydraulic override can let you run away, but as a turret class that doesn't have a tool to prevent gap closers, you aren't going to be able to actually DO anything. you can't run and dot, you can't run and heal, and you certainly won't be able to run and kill. maybe if hydraulic override lets you "fly" 20m away, and lets you get 2 shots off before you knock back, and then roll.. err.. "fly" another 20m away.. >_>

as indicated before, the kolto bomb won't do much unless you are talented into the bodyguard tree.
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ArchangelLBC's Avatar


ArchangelLBC
03.28.2013 , 11:55 AM | #1770
Quote: Originally Posted by texoc View Post
Ever thought about fake casting??


jeeez....

Like everything else which a good commando can do, this is a great way to beat bad players, albeit players who at least know that they HAVE an interrupt. This goes along with positioning correctly, making sure you don't rambo, that you don't even make yourself part of a 2 man assault if you can help it. Doing everything you can to stay on the fringes of an engagement and hope the melee tunnel vision and don't notice you there raining down death.

All of which is no good against smart players with good situational awareness. They see you, they get to you. I know when I face mercs I take the less than half second to read what it is they're casting before pressing my interrupt instead of twitching it because no one will ever care if you interrupt Fusion Missile. Since I am a self admitted not very good player, I figure that anything I think to do, others will think to do.

So no, interrupt juking does not a viable class make.

Quote: Originally Posted by thesadplanet View Post
I play on your server and play a lot of ranked pvp and I honestly have to say that if the 2.0 changes go into effect, mercs will be absolutely viable for ranked pvp.

One of the most important, though least discussed facets of what makes a class good in ranked is versatility. Classes which can respec to heals or tank are extremely valuable for things like huttball or voidstar defense.

Previously, mercs were a liability in hutball, but they now have hydraulic overrides. an ability which actually makes them viable ball carriers.

Electronet, despite being on a long cooldown, could be a huge help in terms of burning down targets. In ranked, when you are fighting in a large battle, one kill could make all the difference and electronet is absolutely a game changing ability.

Additionally, being able to respec to a very durable healing tree as a third healer in void star defense is absolutely massive. the amount of burst healing a merc can do will make it very difficult to kill other healers, while the merc has its own temporary "Do Not Die Button".

I'm not saying that mercs are totally necessary or required in ranked, but to say that there is no reason to bring one is highly inaccurate imo.
We can hope that they keep allowing field respecs. I know my shadow certainly hopes that, but you're bringing an actual fresh perspective so lets discuss things you and I. I'll concede here and now that this is mostly informed theory crafting. You never quite know how the new meta is gonna shake out, and our viability depends somewhat on that meta. I'll address your points as they appeared, though I don't feel like requoting all of it bit by bit if that's ok.

I feel like the ability to respec heals is just as much reason to bring scoundrel/operative DPS in ranked. My understanding is that has seen a pretty nice buff anyway, and when it comes to stalling there's nothing like a stealth class to keep that door clear. Especially a stealth class with an AoE mez and a short CD grenade to interrupt if necessary. Scoundrel DPS in general just offers you a ton more tactical flexibility just because of stealth, and the new roll will make them very good for stopping caps in CW openings as well, which as we all know is pretty much the key to winning CW in ranked games. In Huttball they can respec to much better mobile healers than us.

Hydraulic Overrides/Hold the Line makes them a decent ball carrier since they can't be pulled into the fire or rooted, with that ability but I think that would tend to make vanguard tanks viable as carriers over mercs. They're less squishy than we are, especially with the changes to shield in 2.0, have a leap as well as HtL. I mean you guys aren't trying to use AP VGs in ranked now, and Assault VGs are no more squishier really than DPS commandos. Of course that's assuming VGs remain viable DPS in the new meta, but if you're already bringing them there's no need to bring a commando DPS for this feature alone.


The thing with electronet is that its cooldown pretty much means that, for me, it's going to need to be an ability which can consistently provide a turning point in a match, and since the most useful utility of it can be undone by a CC trinket, I'm just not sure how viable this is going to make us in ranked. It LOOKS pretty good on paper outside of the cooldown, but that cooldown makes it very clutch. Once people know to look for it, you might as well be telling your healers (hey they're focusing me!) and people are seeming pretty sturdy under focused healing in 2.0. I saw that ranked game you guys did on the PTS with ND and I was amazed the stuff people can live through now.

On VS defense, I've already noted that a scoundrel DPS can also respec to a very good healer, and my understanding from only half paying attention to healer discussions is scoundrel heals are nothing to sneeze at. They also provide, as I said, one more stealther to hold doors, and I don't have to tell you how helpful that is in VS. Nevermind the tactical flexibility they offer on other maps.

Remember the question is not really "why bring them?" but "why bring them over <class>?". Think about your ranked team for a moment. If I recall right you guys actually use several different compositions, but in any of those compositions who are you going to slot out for a merc? A DPS having utility (and the ability to competently respec to heals is definitely a form of utility in the current meta) is most certainly important, but the DPS still has to DPS. Whose damage (and utility) are you willing to replace for electro net? In the current meta it's actually detrimental to your team to bring a merc/commando in a DPS role, and sub par even in a healing role, though I know there are some healers that at least can make it work. While the changes make us less of a liability, I don't know how much yet, and of course after a year I'm not the most optimistic guy.

Quote: Originally Posted by thesadplanet View Post
Snipers are good, no arguing that, one might even say that as of right now they are overtuned, especially lethality, which is putting out ridiculous numbers, though much of that can be explained due to PTS gear disparity and the nature of the class (AOE dot spec, lethality operatives were putting up insane numbers as well but you would never want to bring one of those to ranked)

But there is no rule saying you must bring either a sniper or a merc. Its not out of the question to bring both. I listed a few things which can potentially make mercs a valuable asset in ranked pvp, things which snipers do not offer and you basically ignored them.

I will admit that I'm not an expert at mercenary or sniper. But from an outsiders perspective looking in, it looks like mercenaries have a ton of tools that will make them a pain to kill in 2.0. They already had some decent tools, such as the best knockback in the game, a decent insta cast heal, as well as some more typical stuff like stuns and a 30m cc. But now with hydraulic overrides and kolto bomb, as well as being a heavy armor class, they are going to be a pain to take down.
That last bit must be about merc healers. Our 30m CC is a 2s hard cast outside of once every 2 minutes (90 seconds in 2.0 if you spec gunnery), and our stun is 10m which is unfortunate. Heavy Armor has never been all that impressive. My Focus Sentinel has more Damage Reduction, before any defensive cooldowns are used, than my Commando. The knockback slows and doesn't root so there's a question of whether or not sniper's is better, and while it knocks back further than sage knockback, and is AoE instead of conal, sage knockback is much longer range since that cone extends so far.

For a healing spot the question is, will you bring them over a sage or a scoundrel. For a DPS spec will you bring them over any other class and why? That's the real rub. If you dropped 2.0 commando (the skills and abilities not the level 55) into the game today there might be a reason to bring them. Everyone else got buffed too, and being all pessimistic, I don't think our buffs have noticeably moved us up when we compare to all the other buffs others have gotten.
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