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BW, do you ever plan on addressing DPS Mercs/Commandos PvP-wise?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
BW, do you ever plan on addressing DPS Mercs/Commandos PvP-wise?
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SneiK's Avatar


SneiK
03.28.2013 , 02:48 AM | #1731
Quote: Originally Posted by JackNader View Post
TBH, I can't see Mercs ever being fixed now. They've had a year to sort it out. The PTS had probably 100 threads all parroting the same thing. That is, the class gets totally shutdown by a 1 button interrupt. It really seems that Peckenpaugh has an image in his head of how the class should play and there is absolutely no way in hell he's going to deviate from it. Even if it means that the class is near unplayable in PvP.
I'm gona go and defend Mr.Peckenpaugh a bit, which is a bit unusual here on the forums...

People often forget that interrupts have a cooldown. Melee ranged interrupts generally have a shorter CD, while ranged interrupts have a longer CD.

First. A problem with the Merc was being forced into roots by multiple melee. A situation where the Merc could not escape nor fight back. We are getting Hydraulic Overrides to fix that.

Second. People complained that the Merc had no RWZ value in the form of utility. We got a great new ability that should change that. It remains to be seen if the cooldown is too long, or if the ability needs to be adjusted, but we still got something.

Third. Another problem still persisted with the Arsenal Merc in that it required the build up of a lot of stacks, which meant that the opposing team could easily shut down the burst as it just took too much setup to start doing, and when you could've finally be doing the dmg, you'd be focused to death long before, or forced to run for your life (shutting down DPS). We are getting a fix for this as well.


So, what major problems - without testing the current 2.0 build - can you come up with? Because if you still think that the sole thing killing us are interrupts, you are just - and I hate to say this - bad. Yeah it hurts if you can't proc Unload. Maybe they could give Power Shot a chance to proc it as well, so that the ability would serve a better purpose, but still.

The way I see it, the devs (or A dev, since I hear Mr.Peckenpaugh does the balancing himself mostly) have actually listened, and that they have fixed (or tried at least) the glaring issues that people have been pointing out. We will see once 2.0 hits, but before that, please stop this sort of '1 interrupt kills us' nonsense.

Jherad's Avatar


Jherad
03.28.2013 , 03:15 AM | #1732
Quote: Originally Posted by SneiK View Post
People often forget that interrupts have a cooldown. Melee ranged interrupts generally have a shorter CD, while ranged interrupts have a longer CD.
And it is generally melee that is the problem, especially given that the only competitive ranged DPS is the sniper, which is now so far ahead of the merc in terms of PvP viability, that them interrupting us is the least of our concerns.

Quote:
First. A problem with the Merc was being forced into roots by multiple melee. A situation where the Merc could not escape nor fight back. We are getting Hydraulic Overrides to fix that.
Hydraulic Overrides allows us to escape easier, granted, but it doesn't address the core issue which is that we're shut down. We move, we lose a lot of damage output (unlike our PT brothers where the ability originated). HO also doesn't prevent CC or interrupts.

Quote:
Second. People complained that the Merc had no RWZ value in the form of utility. We got a great new ability that should change that. It remains to be seen if the cooldown is too long, or if the ability needs to be adjusted, but we still got something.
Nothing 'remains to be seen' about this. It has been tested quite extensively on the PTS in standards and ranked. The cooldown is way too long. It needed to be adjusted weeks ago. Ideas about improving the class have been posted again, and again and again. And utterly ignored.

Quote:
Third. Another problem still persisted with the Arsenal Merc in that it required the build up of a lot of stacks, which meant that the opposing team could easily shut down the burst as it just took too much setup to start doing, and when you could've finally be doing the dmg, you'd be focused to death long before, or forced to run for your life (shutting down DPS). We are getting a fix for this as well.
A competent ranked team shuts you down in seconds. This hasn't changed. At all. As I've posted elsewhere, the difference in damage between a HSM pre/post buff after one tracer is about 1k. If it crits (big IF considering the crit nerf). Obviously there is no difference after 3 tracers.

Quote:
So, what major problems - without testing the current 2.0 build - can you come up with? Because if you still think that the sole thing killing us are interrupts, you are just - and I hate to say this - bad. Yeah it hurts if you can't proc Unload. Maybe they could give Power Shot a chance to proc it as well, so that the ability would serve a better purpose, but still.

The way I see it, the devs (or A dev, since I hear Mr.Peckenpaugh does the balancing himself mostly) have actually listened, and that they have fixed (or tried at least) the glaring issues that people have been pointing out. We will see once 2.0 hits, but before that, please stop this sort of '1 interrupt kills us' nonsense.
Heh, yeah right. We playing the same game? I agree that interrupts aren't the be-all-end-all of our problems, but no, he hasn't 'listened'. Or if he has, he's been smiling and shaking his head as he derps out the balance changes.

Now was not the time for 'slowly slowly catchy monkey' bull. We needed bold improvements that pushed us forward, rather than little piddly tweaks that barely BARELY kept the status quo. The PTS forum erupted after weeks of nothing, and we got a promise that there'd be an improvement but it needed testing by their supa sekret dev team. TESTING! I've had bigger craps than this buff.
Zachar´ah - Commando / Chasso, Aargh - Merc
The Twinkletoes Legacy
Zachariah's Merc/Mando PvP Guides
2.4 is the PvP Patch! ... J/K, Removing RWZs trolololol

texoc's Avatar


texoc
03.28.2013 , 03:44 AM | #1733
Quote: Originally Posted by Jherad View Post
And it is generally melee that is the problem, especially given that the only competitive ranged DPS is the sniper, which is now so far ahead of the merc in terms of PvP viability, that them interrupting us is the least of our concerns.


Hydraulic Overrides allows us to escape easier, granted, but it doesn't address the core issue which is that we're shut down. We move, we lose a lot of damage output (unlike our PT brothers where the ability originated). HO also doesn't prevent CC or interrupts.



Nothing 'remains to be seen' about this. It has been tested quite extensively on the PTS in standards and ranked. The cooldown is way too long. It needed to be adjusted weeks ago. Ideas about improving the class have been posted again, and again and again. And utterly ignored.


A competent ranked team shuts you down in seconds. This hasn't changed. At all. As I've posted elsewhere, the difference in damage between a HSM pre/post buff after one tracer is about 1k. If it crits (big IF considering the crit nerf). Obviously there is no difference after 3 tracers.



Heh, yeah right. We playing the same game? I agree that interrupts aren't the be-all-end-all of our problems, but no, he hasn't 'listened'. Or if he has, he's been smiling and shaking his head as he derps out the balance changes.

Now was not the time for 'slowly slowly catchy monkey' bull. We needed bold improvements that pushed us forward, rather than little piddly tweaks that barely BARELY kept the status quo. The PTS forum erupted after weeks of nothing, and we got a promise that there'd be an improvement but it needed testing by their supa sekret dev team. TESTING! I've had bigger craps than this buff.
I have no clue what what you expect to get?

You want Mandos to turn into some freakin OP super gunner.

Gunnery currently matches and even surpasses the Marksman Dmg on live and targets drop much faster.

(Im the best sniper/slinger on my server, and i just rolled commando)



Im just laughing at the folks rerolling snipers. Bad on Commando = will be bad on sniper aswell.


QQ more...
Previe

Jherad's Avatar


Jherad
03.28.2013 , 03:47 AM | #1734
Quote: Originally Posted by texoc View Post
I have no clue what what you expect to get?

You want Mandos to turn into some freakin OP super gunner.

Gunnery currently matches and even surpasses the Marksman Dmg on live and targets drop much faster.

(Im the best sniper/slinger on my server, and i just rolled commando)



Im just laughing at the folks rerolling snipers. Bad on Commando = will be bad on sniper aswell.


QQ more...
Yeah, it's not like there have been 100s of posts listing reasonable ideas for improvements or anything.

What do you play? I guarantee I play a better PvP commando than you could.

Go back to playing your sniper. Enjoy being FOTM for the next year.
Zachar´ah - Commando / Chasso, Aargh - Merc
The Twinkletoes Legacy
Zachariah's Merc/Mando PvP Guides
2.4 is the PvP Patch! ... J/K, Removing RWZs trolololol

SneiK's Avatar


SneiK
03.28.2013 , 03:48 AM | #1735
Quote: Originally Posted by Jherad View Post
And it is generally melee that is the problem, especially given that the only competitive ranged DPS is the sniper, which is now so far ahead of the merc in terms of PvP viability, that them interrupting us is the least of our concerns.
Point was, that 1 interrupt is just 1 interrupt. You have other abilities than tracer. HM and Rail are instant and hit pretty hard. RP is instant and allows you to pop 2 heals in. ED and MB work as a filler in a tight spot as well. Interrupts aren't as big of a problem as people make them to be.


Quote: Originally Posted by Jherad View Post
Hydraulic Overrides allows us to escape easier, granted, but it doesn't address the core issue which is that we're shut down. We move, we lose a lot of damage output (unlike our PT brothers where the ability originated). HO also doesn't prevent CC or interrupts.
Slows and roots are also CC as in 'Crowd Control'. If you are referring to hard stuns and mezzs, yes, HO doesn't prevent them and it shouldn't. And the point about instant casts still remain.


Quote: Originally Posted by Jherad View Post
Nothing 'remains to be seen' about this. It has been tested quite extensively on the PTS in standards and ranked. The cooldown is way too long. It needed to be adjusted weeks ago. Ideas about improving the class have been posted again, and again and again. And utterly ignored.
Nothing has been tested 'extensively' on the PTS as we didn't have any tools to test PvP 'extensively'. Free PvP gear + mods + consumables are pretty standard in games like EvE where testing actually means something. Here we had the bolster bug, people running with bad gear, and then people got bored and never came back to the test server and PvP testing was pretty much dead.


Quote: Originally Posted by Jherad View Post
A competent ranked team shuts you down in seconds. This hasn't changed. At all. As I've posted elsewhere, the difference in damage between a HSM pre/post buff after one tracer is about 1k. If it crits (big IF considering the crit nerf). Obviously there is no difference after 3 tracers.
No, I don't think a competent ranked team shuts me down in seconds, and if they try that hard, the heals and taunts will just hurt their team a lot.


Quote: Originally Posted by Jherad View Post
Heh, yeah right. We playing the same game? I agree that interrupts aren't the be-all-end-all of our problems, but no, he hasn't 'listened'. Or if he has, he's been smiling and shaking his head as he derps out the balance changes.
Yeah, because that's what people with jobs do.


Don't mean to sound offensive, you should try that too. I'll agree to disagree.

Jherad's Avatar


Jherad
03.28.2013 , 03:52 AM | #1736
Quote: Originally Posted by SneiK View Post
Nothing has been tested 'extensively' on the PTS as we didn't have any tools to test PvP 'extensively'. Free PvP gear + mods + consumables are pretty standard in games like EvE where testing actually means something. Here we had the bolster bug, people running with bad gear, and then people got bored and never came back to the test server and PvP testing was pretty much dead.
A bunch of us copied over multiple times and geared out in Conqueror with high end stims etc. Quite a few ranked matches, and lots from my server in particular running multiple WZs. I'm sorry you didn't get to participate.

I'm not getting wound up at you, and I apologise if it seems that way. Let's say I'm disagreeing with you 'vehemently'

Just how often are you running ranked with your merc DPS? It really is trivial for a top team to shut down the class without the benefits of sniper cover etc.
Zachar´ah - Commando / Chasso, Aargh - Merc
The Twinkletoes Legacy
Zachariah's Merc/Mando PvP Guides
2.4 is the PvP Patch! ... J/K, Removing RWZs trolololol

texoc's Avatar


texoc
03.28.2013 , 04:10 AM | #1737
Quote: Originally Posted by Jherad View Post
Yeah, it's not like there have been 100s of posts listing reasonable ideas for improvements or anything.

What do you play? I guarantee I play a better PvP commando than you could.
Yeah i saw you on the PTS, wasnt impressed at all, no offense buddy.
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Jherad's Avatar


Jherad
03.28.2013 , 04:14 AM | #1738
Quote: Originally Posted by texoc View Post
Yeah i saw you on the PTS, wasnt impressed at all, no offense buddy.
Conversely, I didn't notice you at all. I guess you were one of 'those' commandos.

No offense buddy.

Enjoy derping out 1.5 million with your eyes shut and hands tied behind your back on your sniper.

(You can see some of my PTS runs through the YT channel in my sig if you want to see how a Commando should be played. You might learn something)

Edit: Sigh. Trolled. You just hit 50 on your commando I see. Grats. Go **** up some other thread.
Zachar´ah - Commando / Chasso, Aargh - Merc
The Twinkletoes Legacy
Zachariah's Merc/Mando PvP Guides
2.4 is the PvP Patch! ... J/K, Removing RWZs trolololol

texoc's Avatar


texoc
03.28.2013 , 04:55 AM | #1739
Quote: Originally Posted by Jherad View Post
Conversely, I didn't notice you at all. I guess you were one of 'those' commandos.

No offense buddy.

Enjoy derping out 1.5 million with your eyes shut and hands tied behind your back on your sniper.

(You can see some of my PTS runs through the YT channel in my sig if you want to see how a Commando should be played. You might learn something)
1 week into commando 50 pvp, judge for yourself. Im pretty sure i will break 1k dps pre 2.0. Had a few 960+dps games in between.

It absolutely matches Marksman Dmg and Burst. Next week we gonna hop in with commando in to some RBG games.
We made scoundrel dps work last months with me breaking 1000dps, why shouldnt commando work? Its all about the fun!

http://imageshack.us/f/189/screenshot2013032322345.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/f/138/screenshot2013032112502.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/f/41/screenshot2013032019265.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/f/577/screenshot2013032000181.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/f/27/screenshot2013031800095.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/f/507/screenshot2013031713345.jpg/



Sure i cant reach my Lethality/Dirty Fighting numbers, but im not supposed to out dps a FULL DD AOE DOT SPEC with mostly single target burst.


http://imageshack.us/f/191/screenshot2013032522493.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images...020400594.jpg/
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Jherad's Avatar


Jherad
03.28.2013 , 05:10 AM | #1740
Quote: Originally Posted by texoc View Post
Screenies
Grats. You'll do a whole heap more in 2.0 - I know I do.

You know what you'll do significantly more on? Your sniper. As in 1500dps on a bad day.

I realised a little while ago - You've been trolling in this very thread before you even ROLLED a commando. Telling us how to play because you saw someone do something in a warzone once. You even posted a link to my youtube channel a few months ago as some kind proof that we were viable.

Here's the thing, once more, for people like you who stroll in, troll the crap out of the thread, then leave:

Everything you can do on your commando, you'll do a whole HEAP better on another class. Don't believe me? Wait for 2.0. See what your sniper can do then. You say you're one of the best? Then you'll be cracking 1800dps+

See how much you'll get out of your commando. Tell me why the hell someone would bring one to a RWZ. Heck, don't take my word for it, ask every good RWZ team on almost every server why they're not bringing one.
Zachar´ah - Commando / Chasso, Aargh - Merc
The Twinkletoes Legacy
Zachariah's Merc/Mando PvP Guides
2.4 is the PvP Patch! ... J/K, Removing RWZs trolololol