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BW, do you ever plan on addressing DPS Mercs/Commandos PvP-wise?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
BW, do you ever plan on addressing DPS Mercs/Commandos PvP-wise?
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Smashbrother's Avatar


Smashbrother
02.12.2013 , 12:29 AM | #1221
Quote: Originally Posted by DariusCalera View Post
One would think that, but BW has demonstrated, numerous time, that when it comes to the Commando/Mercenary ACs that rational thought does not always apply.

Cryo Grenade was just an example of this, another is the SS root.

I agree that Electro Net is probably a commando/merc only ability because who, in their right mind, would give VGs another snare?
You realize shadows and sages got their stun nerfed to 10m too? It's not a matter of "BW hates commandos so they nerfed cryo grenade to 10m" ******** that you keep spewing. It has to do with nerfing all long range stuns.

Net is going to be 30m. Whether VGs get it too or not, I don't know.

Smashbrother's Avatar


Smashbrother
02.12.2013 , 12:36 AM | #1222
Quote: Originally Posted by Jherad View Post
I'm not sure if any of us know what the effect of 30 levels of stealth detection will be given there is absolutely nothing that comes close to that right now. I highly suspect it will affect range given the huge number (why 30? if all it needs to do is overcome whatever stealth the opponent has, far less would do).
It's 30 because sins have a skill that increase their stealth level by like 15. So you'd basically have to be in cover for 15s to even counteract a sin's stealth so you can see him while he's stealthed. That's gonna happen really when your node guarding.

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As for shadows, if they see a commando they'll do exactly what they do in warzones now before they want to move. Pop their tech shield, which will almost certainly block electro net.
If it forces them to use shroud to remove net, that's fine too. It means they're not using it to avoid something else that's big. Plus, net's CD will be much shorter than shrouds.

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Besides, the question is not 'would you like someone with electro net on your team?' - it is 'who would you drop for it?'. I really doubt anyone is going to give up their shadow or cap denial. So yeah, *maybe* combat medics get a look-in now (especially as bubblestuns have fallen out of grace). Great. I didn't roll a healer. See the title of this thread.
Honestly, I feel like net is good enough to warrant a commando on your team. The escape denial mechanic is unique and extremely useful. Focus got nerfed, so commando could replace a focus guardian or something. Snipers weren't really buffed that much, so that's another option.

Smashbrother's Avatar


Smashbrother
02.12.2013 , 12:43 AM | #1223
Quote: Originally Posted by cashogy_reborn View Post
im not going to argue with you since you seem to just fight with everyone on every issue for no reason.
No I just enjoy fighting stupidity like when you suggested grav round should be instant cast all the time. Thankfully, you realized how *********** stupidly OP that was and suggested more balanced ideas later on.

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but i do not think that electro net, as it is currently being interpreted, is going to make Merc/Mando worth taking into RWZ.
I do. Especially since medic commandos get it too, and focus got nerfed. But we obviously won't know until we get to play it. Snipers didn't really get anything substantial so dps commando with net may replace them.

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and Electro-Net was listed in the general Trooper section of the data-mine wasnt it? that would suggest that it is for both PT/VG and Merc/Mando. yeah, Merc/Mando is definitely going to have a unique and worthwhile role to fulfill in competitive PvP
Jesus *********** christ. How many times do I have to say this? Just because it's listed under the trooper section on darth hater doesn't mean it's guaranteed to be for both ACs.

Once *********** again, dual saber throw is listed under JK, but the description says it requires two sabers, so it's *********** obviously sentinel only unless you think BW is giving guardians two sabers too?

The two biggest issues plaguing dps commandos in RWZ is they bring 0 utility and can't kite melee well enough to dps. Net fixes both problems.

klham's Avatar


klham
02.12.2013 , 01:05 AM | #1224
Quote: Originally Posted by DariusCalera View Post
Probably not. The net would have to be severely OP to make up for the weakness of the commando in a ranked matched. Other than Electro Net, we did not receive anything to keep melee at range so we will still be highly susceptible to interrupts, which the other classes you mentioned, aren't.
It seems likely that the escape mechanic will be dealt with separately, a new ability accessible while leveling (like our belated interrupt). A lot hinges on what sort of escape they come up with, and what immunities/buffs might be proc'd by it. It would be nice to get something really powerful that off-sets all the other weaknesses of the class.

cashogy_reborn's Avatar


cashogy_reborn
02.12.2013 , 01:26 AM | #1225
lets continue these hypothetical arguments based on class changes that may or may not be accurate and may or may not be even added to the game.

im tired of discussing this crap. the devs dont care, and they certainly wont engage in discussion with us so something constructive could at least come of any of this.

pointless bickering is pointless
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optimusnl's Avatar


optimusnl
02.12.2013 , 11:11 AM | #1226
Agree. Bring back These classes to their powerfull state as they were BEFORE 1.2. It was perfect.

klham's Avatar


klham
02.12.2013 , 11:34 AM | #1227
Hopefully the new open world PvP daily on Ilum means PvP balance will be a priority. Mercs/mandos will definitely want to group up even for the non-Heroic missions, or be prepared for lots of return trips from respawn. I did the new daily today. I suspect it will take me at least one-third of the time to complete on any one of my other alts. It's going to be great fun on my Op - not so much on my healer Merc (nevermind my dps mando).

Smashbrother's Avatar


Smashbrother
02.12.2013 , 12:03 PM | #1228
Quote: Originally Posted by cashogy_reborn View Post
lets continue these hypothetical arguments based on class changes that may or may not be accurate and may or may not be even added to the game.
The sarcasm is strong with this one.

Funny how you think talking about these datamined info is pointless hypothetical arguments, yet you had no problem arguing over your list of commando changes that you wanted in this thread and that other one you made, which were 100% made up. At least these datamined stuff has a very high chance of appearing on the patch notes.

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im tired of discussing this crap. the devs dont care, and they certainly wont engage in discussion with us so something constructive could at least come of any of this.
They do care. They're trying to fix our two biggest issues--no utility and inability to do damage because we can't keep melee away--by giving us net. Whether it will be enough we won't know for sure until we play it. But if you really think the devs don't care, then quit. Money is the only way to flex your opinion in a business.

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pointless bickering is pointless
This is the *********** forums.

TUXs's Avatar


TUXs
02.12.2013 , 12:13 PM | #1229
Quote: Originally Posted by Smashbrother View Post
They do care. They're trying to fix our two biggest issues--no utility and inability to do damage because we can't keep melee away--by giving us net. Whether it will be enough we won't know for sure until we play it. But if you really think the devs don't care, then quit. Money is the only way to flex your opinion in a business.
I respect both you guys - but I agree with Cash on this.

If they cared, where are they? Bob Hinkle just did an interview/blog and even stated they need to do better communicating. Bioware acknowledges their own pathetic communication...yet they never try to alter it.

They don't make changes based on what the people playing would like, instead they look at their metrics. You assume they're working on our class...but for over a year they've been nothing but talk when it comes to their 'big plans'. They admit that the resolve value is wrong on bubbles, but have they bothered to fix it? Nope.

Just ONCE I'd like to see something that made me believe they cared Smash...just ONCE! But they never show it...
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ArchangelLBC's Avatar


ArchangelLBC
02.12.2013 , 01:13 PM | #1230
Quote:
It's 30 because sins have a skill that increase their stealth level by like 15. So you'd basically have to be in cover for 15s to even counteract a sin's stealth so you can see him while he's stealthed. That's gonna happen really when your node guarding.
That doesn't explain why their stealth level increase is almost double the boost infiltration's stealth boost. Also given that in practice stealth level is effectively how close you can get to someone before they see you, assuming that with this change Snipers will be able to see stealthers coming a long way out isn't beyond the realm of possibility. Especially considering that the only really consistent threat to a well positioned sniper is a stealther.

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You realize shadows and sages got their stun nerfed to 10m too? It's not a matter of "BW hates commandos so they nerfed cryo grenade to 10m" ******** that you keep spewing. It has to do with nerfing all long range stuns.

Net is going to be 30m. Whether VGs get it too or not, I don't know.
nice of you to sidestep his point about our root being melee ranged. Face it dude. Commando was balanced for a different game and you're just too stubborn to admit it. Which hey, so is BW, as they grudgingly admit that hey maybe we SHOULD have an incombat revive, and maybe we SHOULD get an interrupt.

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If it forces them to use shroud to remove net, that's fine too. It means they're not using it to avoid something else that's big. Plus, net's CD will be much shorter than shrouds.
If resilience cleanses the effect, then your main use of its utility (preventing stealth escapes) is kind of moot. Any smart shadow worth their salt will resilience before stealthing out to cleanse burns and what not so they don't pop out, so you haven't really effected the meta. In huttball too, they'd resilience before phasewalking just like they should when going for the score now to prevent getting yanked at the last second.

Also you keep asserting that it will be 30m (I'll give you even odds on that) and that its cooldown will be significantly shorter than resilience, except given its obvious usefulness, and the lack of data on its cooldown that I've been able to find this seems a baseless assumption. In which case, you should err on the side of caution my friend.

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Honestly, I feel like net is good enough to warrant a commando on your team. The escape denial mechanic is unique and extremely useful. Focus got nerfed, so commando could replace a focus guardian or something. Snipers weren't really buffed that much, so that's another option.
Again that really depends on a lot of factors. What's the cooldown? What's the range? Is it cleanseable? Will talents which cleanse movement impairing effects cleanse it (Tank Shadow Force Speed as an example, Combat Force Camo). The Force Speed example is telling because normally a root DOES prevent you from going anywhere with force speed, or from leaping, but if a tank hybrid can just force speed away, its usefulness starts going down, same with force camo (though probably the nature of the debuff would prevent the second one, depends on how it's implemented).

Also the Focus changes look like a rebalance to me, given that you get a damage increase after using Force Sweep. Will need actual values before we can more properly judge it.

My point is that a Guardian's ability to spec tank on the fly, and a sniper's ability to do damage from a distance are all reasons to bring them. While almost no DPS can justify its spot on a ranked team based solely on DPS, they can't truly justify their spot on a ranked team with just utility either. Especially when it is kind of a 1 trick pony kind of utility. Unless the ability can be practically spammed, it's usefulness starts to go down drastically and we still have to ask "is this absolutely necessary, or can I live without it?"

Ranked teams often already forgo a sniper, and electro net will definitely be useful, but useful enough? Too many unknowns, and so, better to err on the side of pessimism.
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