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BW, do you ever plan on addressing DPS Mercs/Commandos PvP-wise?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
BW, do you ever plan on addressing DPS Mercs/Commandos PvP-wise?
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Jherad's Avatar


Jherad
02.11.2013 , 08:15 PM | #1211
Quote: Originally Posted by Owynyo View Post
I hope the planned buffs will make them once again a viable choice.
As it looks like we're not getting any DPS improvements (and at least one nerf to damage), we won't be able to compete with the PTs/Maras for dps spots, which leaves us with the utility role.

So the big question will be - IF Smashbrother is correct and electro net is merc/mando only, is it enough to warrant swapping out a tankassin with pulls (and now phase walk) or an engi sniper with probe (and now with massive stealth detection and added mobility)?

This is the problem. Our competition for the spots just got buffed up the wazoo. The best I am seeing right now (albeit with incomplete information) is that the status quo has not changed. Worst case, we've fallen even further behind.
Zachar´ah - Commando / Chasso - Merc
Youtube / Twitch
2.4 is the PvP Patch! ... J/K, Removing RWZs trolololol

DariusCalera's Avatar


DariusCalera
02.11.2013 , 08:49 PM | #1212
Quote: Originally Posted by Jherad View Post
As it looks like we're not getting any DPS improvements (and at least one nerf to damage), we won't be able to compete with the PTs/Maras for dps spots, which leaves us with the utility role.

So the big question will be - IF Smashbrother is correct and electro net is merc/mando only, is it enough to warrant swapping out a tankassin with pulls (and now phase walk) or an engi sniper with probe (and now with massive stealth detection and added mobility)?
Probably not. The net would have to be severely OP to make up for the weakness of the commando in a ranked matched. Other than Electro Net, we did not receive anything to keep melee at range so we will still be highly susceptible to interrupts, which the other classes you mentioned, aren't.

Smashbrother's Avatar


Smashbrother
02.11.2013 , 09:54 PM | #1213
Quote: Originally Posted by DariusCalera View Post
Principle remains the same. Cryo Grenade for commandos got nerfed because of VGs. "IF", and that's a big if, Electro Net is for both Trooper ACs, then it would be highly unlikely that it would have a 30m range.
Fail.

Cryo grenade and ALL OTHER STUNS got nerfed because of a retarded sweeping change BW made regarding stuns. It has NOTHING to do with vanguards or snares.

Shadow force slow is 10m. Sage force slow is 30m. So if both ACs do get the net, VG one would be 10m, and commando one would be 30m.

Smashbrother's Avatar


Smashbrother
02.11.2013 , 09:57 PM | #1214
Quote: Originally Posted by cashogy_reborn View Post
i used cleanse on my self often as well. but i would also use it to remove Mez effects from my teammates when i could.

i rarely see healers do that, even the healers that i consider to be good
It's not a matter of them not wanting to cleanse CCs, it's a matter of the damn cleanse having a cd and they can't spam cleanse everyone on the team. When a group gets flash banged, your healer can't cleanse you all. Only one. Also, i prioritize cleansing **** off me before my teammates because I'm precious. I really wish BW would remove the damn cd on it. Or make it aoe. Either one please.

Smashbrother's Avatar


Smashbrother
02.11.2013 , 10:05 PM | #1215
Quote: Originally Posted by Jherad View Post
As it looks like we're not getting any DPS improvements (and at least one nerf to damage), we won't be able to compete with the PTs/Maras for dps spots, which leaves us with the utility role.

So the big question will be - IF Smashbrother is correct and electro net is merc/mando only, is it enough to warrant swapping out a tankassin with pulls (and now phase walk) or an engi sniper with probe (and now with massive stealth detection and added mobility)?

This is the problem. Our competition for the spots just got buffed up the wazoo. The best I am seeing right now (albeit with incomplete information) is that the status quo has not changed. Worst case, we've fallen even further behind.
The sniper's stealth detection is pretty damn worthless. It only increases your stealth detection level, not how far you can detect stealth. So it will be useful if you're solo guarding or something, but even then I'm pretty sure you can't see stealth behind your char. It's not going to be of any use when you're pewpewpewing from the back. It's not like your gonna see a stealthed sin from 30m away and can shoot him to bring him out of stealth.

Phase walk is even more reason to bring a commando that has a net. If you don't want the shadow to teleport with the ball (I'm not 100% if this will be possible or not, but let's say it is), then the only way to stop him is to net him.

I'm not saying the new changes are somehow going to make commandos top dog in pvp, but I do think the net is utility enough to bring a commando into RWZs. Think about it, how many times has you're team tried to kill a mara, ops, sorc, jugg, sin, only to have them vanish/leap/run away giving them time to get healed?

And btw, the net is a commando thing so healer commandos get it too. This combined with the nice medic changes will probably warrant a commando healer at the least, if a dps one is still trash for rwzs.

cashogy_reborn's Avatar


cashogy_reborn
02.11.2013 , 11:03 PM | #1216
not every game is huttball. and we dont get to pick what warzone we want, which means you cannot tailor your RWZ composition based on certain strats for certain WZs.

electro net sounds like it would have quite a lot of application in Huttball. but in other warzones? not really.

when i first heard the skill name i thought it would be some kind of AOE CC. like a root or a slow. which would actually have real application in other warzones (slowing team movement between objective points)

lets look at the characteristics of Sorc and Sniper, the other Ranged DPS. Sniper has cover, which makes them a very good hard counter to a lot of melee. Sorc has an abundance of CC and the ability to get out of dodge quickly. what does Merc have? Casted abilities with no interrupt resistance, no CC resistance, and no mobility.

bioware really needs to decide on what kind of playstyle Merc is going to be. Sniper is a turret, Sorc is about control. Merc could become another turret class, or a run-and-gun class. it would require some major revamping tho. like the ability to cast on the move, a way to build up interrupt resistance, etc. i would prefer the changes i had suggested in my Merc Manifesto, since that would actually make us competitive
Dany - Attomm - Dan'y - Fogel
The Original Stormborn Commando Representative
The King of Bads

Smashbrother's Avatar


Smashbrother
02.11.2013 , 11:07 PM | #1217
Quote: Originally Posted by cashogy_reborn View Post
not every game is huttball. and we dont get to pick what warzone we want, which means you cannot tailor your RWZ composition based on certain strats for certain WZs.

electro net sounds like it would have quite a lot of application in Huttball. but in other warzones? not really.

when i first heard the skill name i thought it would be some kind of AOE CC. like a root or a slow. which would actually have real application in other warzones (slowing team movement between objective points)

lets look at the characteristics of Sorc and Sniper, the other Ranged DPS. Sniper has cover, which makes them a very good hard counter to a lot of melee. Sorc has an abundance of CC and the ability to get out of dodge quickly. what does Merc have? Casted abilities with no interrupt resistance, no CC resistance, and no mobility.

bioware really needs to decide on what kind of playstyle Merc is going to be. Sniper is a turret, Sorc is about control. Merc could become another turret class, or a run-and-gun class. it would require some major revamping tho. like the ability to cast on the move, a way to build up interrupt resistance, etc. i would prefer the changes i had suggested in my Merc Manifesto, since that would actually make us competitive
Um did you not read what net does? It's a dot with a 50% snare that prevents the target from using vanish, leaps, and speed boosts. Do you not realize how extremely useful this is in EVERY wz? Oh look that healer ops is about to die. Net him and he can't vanish. Oh look sent is going to die, net him so he can't camo. Oh look sage healer is going to die, net him so he can't break roots and run away. Oh look guardian is about to die. Net him so he can't friendly leap away. And those are just the offensive ways you could use net. It's obvious you can use the net to stop melee from leaping you and destroying your face.

Taking away other classes' escape abilities = they die. Think of it this way. Using the net on someone makes them just like a commando because they can't escape! And you know how easy we are to kill.

DariusCalera's Avatar


DariusCalera
02.11.2013 , 11:13 PM | #1218
Quote: Originally Posted by Smashbrother View Post
Shadow force slow is 10m. Sage force slow is 30m. So if both ACs do get the net, VG one would be 10m, and commando one would be 30m.
One would think that, but BW has demonstrated, numerous time, that when it comes to the Commando/Mercenary ACs that rational thought does not always apply.

Cryo Grenade was just an example of this, another is the SS root.

I agree that Electro Net is probably a commando/merc only ability because who, in their right mind, would give VGs another snare?

Jherad's Avatar


Jherad
02.11.2013 , 11:52 PM | #1219
Quote: Originally Posted by Smashbrother View Post
The sniper's stealth detection is pretty damn worthless. It only increases your stealth detection level, not how far you can detect stealth. So it will be useful if you're solo guarding or something, but even then I'm pretty sure you can't see stealth behind your char. It's not going to be of any use when you're pewpewpewing from the back. It's not like your gonna see a stealthed sin from 30m away and can shoot him to bring him out of stealth.

Phase walk is even more reason to bring a commando that has a net. If you don't want the shadow to teleport with the ball (I'm not 100% if this will be possible or not, but let's say it is), then the only way to stop him is to net him.

I'm not saying the new changes are somehow going to make commandos top dog in pvp, but I do think the net is utility enough to bring a commando into RWZs. Think about it, how many times has you're team tried to kill a mara, ops, sorc, jugg, sin, only to have them vanish/leap/run away giving them time to get healed?

And btw, the net is a commando thing so healer commandos get it too. This combined with the nice medic changes will probably warrant a commando healer at the least, if a dps one is still trash for rwzs.
I'm not sure if any of us know what the effect of 30 levels of stealth detection will be given there is absolutely nothing that comes close to that right now. I highly suspect it will affect range given the huge number (why 30? if all it needs to do is overcome whatever stealth the opponent has, far less would do).

As for shadows, if they see a commando they'll do exactly what they do in warzones now before they want to move. Pop their tech shield, which will almost certainly block electro net.

Besides, the question is not 'would you like someone with electro net on your team?' - it is 'who would you drop for it?'. I really doubt anyone is going to give up their shadow or cap denial. So yeah, *maybe* combat medics get a look-in now (especially as bubblestuns have fallen out of grace). Great. I didn't roll a healer. See the title of this thread.
Zachar´ah - Commando / Chasso - Merc
Youtube / Twitch
2.4 is the PvP Patch! ... J/K, Removing RWZs trolololol

cashogy_reborn's Avatar


cashogy_reborn
02.12.2013 , 12:14 AM | #1220
Quote: Originally Posted by Smashbrother View Post
Um did you not read what net does? It's a dot with a 50% snare that prevents the target from using vanish, leaps, and speed boosts. Do you not realize how extremely useful this is in EVERY wz? Oh look that healer ops is about to die. Net him and he can't vanish. Oh look sent is going to die, net him so he can't camo. Oh look sage healer is going to die, net him so he can't break roots and run away. Oh look guardian is about to die. Net him so he can't friendly leap away. And those are just the offensive ways you could use net. It's obvious you can use the net to stop melee from leaping you and destroying your face.

Taking away other classes' escape abilities = they die. Think of it this way. Using the net on someone makes them just like a commando because they can't escape! And you know how easy we are to kill.
im not going to argue with you since you seem to just fight with everyone on every issue for no reason.

but i do not think that electro net, as it is currently being interpreted, is going to make Merc/Mando worth taking into RWZ.

and Electro-Net was listed in the general Trooper section of the data-mine wasnt it? that would suggest that it is for both PT/VG and Merc/Mando. yeah, Merc/Mando is definitely going to have a unique and worthwhile role to fulfill in competitive PvP
Dany - Attomm - Dan'y - Fogel
The Original Stormborn Commando Representative
The King of Bads