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BW, do you ever plan on addressing DPS Mercs/Commandos PvP-wise?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
BW, do you ever plan on addressing DPS Mercs/Commandos PvP-wise?
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Smashbrother's Avatar


Smashbrother
02.10.2013 , 09:23 PM | #1141
Quote: Originally Posted by ArchangelLBC View Post
As far as the diversion change goes, I'll say it. Absorbing one Force/Tech attack is absolute crap. It will take smart knights/warriors exactly one day to figure out how to counter it, especially since it's not what you'd call a subtle animation. (Use cauterize when you see it, that eats up the absorb, proceed with killing). It's better than nothing and might catch a few baddies flatfooted, but lets not pretend it isn't still pretty crap. You were gonna beat those bads anyway in all likelihood.
Cauterize is melee only and guardians don't get it. Right now, when I use my KB on JKs, they will immediately stasis me to prevent me from running away, while waiting out the slow from my KB. The diversion change will stop that, and that is a good thing.

If you've played WoW, then you'll know this change is exactly like what grounding totem was in WoW. The difference being you can't attack the grounding totem to remove the buff. Using diversion properly will require a lot of situational awareness and frankly, anything that separates the bad commandos from the good ones is good.

I'm not 100% sure, but I think diversion and all similar abilities are off the GCD. This means if you're good enough, you can time it's usage and your enemy can do nothing about it. For example, carnage mara combo is gore+MS, and at the end use force scream for some crazy *** burst. You can anticipate their scream and pop diversion right before they scream. If the mara thinks you're gonna use diversion to suck up his scream, he will wait to use it and guess what? Gore is no longer active and his force scream won't get the 100% ArP, and you won't get crit for 5-6k.

Quote:
If it seems like, and others, are overly negative, well that's BW's history at work. I'll expect the worst from them till they can prove they don't make idiotic design decisions with regards to this class or class balance in general. If it turns out I'm wrong I get to be pleasantly surprised. If, as history leads me to believe, we're right to be negative and this will all actually widen the gap even more, then at least I won't be sorely disappointed.
If you feel BW is so terrible, why are you still giving them your money and playing this game? Just quit and save everyone the negativity and whining. You can always resub when/if you feel they did make the right changes.

Macroeconomics's Avatar


Macroeconomics
02.10.2013 , 09:24 PM | #1142
Quote: Originally Posted by Smashbrother View Post
God you're *********** bad. Learn2read. Saber reflect only works against DIRECT *********** attacks. Net is a dot. And most likely guardians are the only ones getting saber reflect.
And you are a troll. Who clearly has trouble with the English language. The most common usage of "direct single target attack" would be as a descriptor to exclude AoE attacks. Beyond that, there are a host of questions related to Saber Reflect. Does it reflect reflected damage from Cloak of Pain? What happens if two characters each have Saber Reflect up? And DoTs definitely enter the picture given the haphazard way their damage is handled by the SWtoR system. Hell at this point it isn't even clear what would happen if you shot an Incendiary Missile at someone with Saber Reflect up. Would the entire 18 sec tail reflect to the shooter since the application itself is reflected? Would only the first 4 seconds reflect with the remainder sticking to the target? Or would the entire 18 sec tail have no effect on anyone since the IM never hit its target? It depends entirely on the way the programming code is implemented - and lest you are ignorant of this fact, the English language description of how an ability works does NOT always square with how the ability is implemented. Ex. Retaliation/Riposte.

Jherad's Avatar


Jherad
02.10.2013 , 09:32 PM | #1143
I'd still like to know why Demo Round has apparently taken a hit. It certainly wasn't even close to breaking any single target damage records, and commandos had nowhere near the best burst or highest DPS.

Might as well just post TROLLFACE.JPG as the patch notes at this point.
Zachar´ah - Commando / Chasso, Aargh - Merc
The Twinkletoes Legacy
Zachariah's Merc/Mando PvP Guides
2.4 is the PvP Patch! ... J/K, Removing RWZs trolololol

Smashbrother's Avatar


Smashbrother
02.10.2013 , 09:32 PM | #1144
Quote: Originally Posted by Macroeconomics View Post
And you are a troll. Who clearly has trouble with the English language. The most common usage of "direct single target attack" would be as a descriptor to exclude AoE attacks. Beyond that, there are a host of questions related to Saber Reflect. Does it reflect reflected damage from Cloak of Pain? What happens if two characters each have Saber Reflect up? And DoTs definitely enter the picture given the haphazard way their damage is handled by the SWtoR system. Hell at this point it isn't even clear what would happen if you shot an Incendiary Missile at someone with Saber Reflect up. Would the entire 18 sec tail reflect to the shooter since the application itself is reflected? Would only the first 4 seconds reflect with the remainder sticking to the target? Or would the entire 18 sec tail have no effect on anyone since the IM never hit its target? It depends entirely on the way the programming code is implemented - and lest you are ignorant of this fact, the English language description of how an ability works does NOT always square with how the ability is implemented. Ex. Retaliation/Riposte.
Is this your first MMO or something?

Direct attacks =/= Damage over time attacks.

Whether something is single target or AOE is completely separate from whether it's direct or DOT.

And once again, learn2read. Net's description says it does DOT over 9 seconds. It's not one of those hybrid spells like Incendiary Round that does initial damage, and then has a DOT component afterwards. Net is a straight up *********** DOT. It will not be affected by saber reflect.

But let's say for argument's sake that it does. So *********** what? I'd rather that melee be 30m away from me slowed to hell and not able to leap to me, and reflect whatever damage net is doing to him, than him leaping to my face and destroying me.

Smashbrother's Avatar


Smashbrother
02.10.2013 , 09:35 PM | #1145
Quote: Originally Posted by Jherad View Post
I'd still like to know why Demo Round has apparently taken a hit. It certainly wasn't even close to breaking any single target damage records, and commandos had nowhere near the best burst or highest DPS.

Might as well just post TROLLFACE.JPG as the patch notes at this point.
Outside of smash, maul, and ambush, I think demo round does the highest damage. Highest I've hit with it was nearly 6k, and I regularly get over 5k crits with it. HIB doesn't hit as hard and it's got all these ArP talents too. I don't know why it's getting nerfed to be honest since commandos aren't exactly top dps. But meh.

Jherad's Avatar


Jherad
02.10.2013 , 09:48 PM | #1146
Quote: Originally Posted by Smashbrother View Post
Outside of smash, maul, and ambush, I think demo round does the highest damage. Highest I've hit with it was nearly 6k, and I regularly get over 5k crits with it. HIB doesn't hit as hard and it's got all these ArP talents too. I don't know why it's getting nerfed to be honest since commandos aren't exactly top dps. But meh.
Yeah, I've eaten 5k+ vicious throws and takedowns on a number of occasions too. Nerfing Demo is just trolling us at this point.
Zachar´ah - Commando / Chasso, Aargh - Merc
The Twinkletoes Legacy
Zachariah's Merc/Mando PvP Guides
2.4 is the PvP Patch! ... J/K, Removing RWZs trolololol

ArchangelLBC's Avatar


ArchangelLBC
02.10.2013 , 09:54 PM | #1147
Quote: Originally Posted by Smashbrother View Post
Cauterize is melee only and guardians don't get it. Right now, when I use my KB on JKs, they will immediately stasis me to prevent me from running away, while waiting out the slow from my KB. The diversion change will stop that, and that is a good thing.
If they're smash spec it's the easiest thing in the world to use blade storm then stasis. Easy enough to use that on any spec not combat (I'd honestly forgotten cauterize's initial hit was melee. Never play watchman). On combat you can use sweep to clear it out.

Quote: Originally Posted by Smashbrother View Post
If you've played WoW, then you'll know this change is exactly like what grounding totem was in WoW. The difference being you can't attack the grounding totem to remove the buff. Using diversion properly will require a lot of situational awareness and frankly, anything that separates the bad commandos from the good ones is good.
It's one attack. Period. And no I've not played wow past like level 20 years and years ago. Here and now though, you'll get one free absorb, and smart players will make sure they clear it out before using their big yellow damage attack.

Quote: Originally Posted by Smashbrother View Post
I'm not 100% sure, but I think diversion and all similar abilities are off the GCD. This means if you're good enough, you can time it's usage and your enemy can do nothing about it. For example, carnage mara combo is gore+MS, and at the end use force scream for some crazy *** burst. You can anticipate their scream and pop diversion right before they scream. If the mara thinks you're gonna use diversion to suck up his scream, he will wait to use it and guess what? Gore is no longer active and his force scream won't get the 100% ArP, and you won't get crit for 5-6k.
Honestly that isn't even a timing thing. You should knockback and then pop diversion immediately. You don't want to eat the Ravage and once knocked back they're out of ranged force abilities to clear the buff besides Blade Storm. And it's good to know I can completely negate carnage's most easily countered combo without using a stun. I still have to look out for Zen > PS > Blade Rush Spam with a Blade storm in there somewhere. If they anticipate they'll use BS early (if they already have an ataru proc granting auto crit they'll definitely do this. Nothing you can really do about PS > BR spam if you've already used your knockback sadly =/ Root and run I guess.



Quote: Originally Posted by Smashbrother View Post
If you feel BW is so terrible, why are you still giving them your money and playing this game? Just quit and save everyone the negativity and whining. You can always resub when/if you feel they did make the right changes.
I've said multiple times that I basically stay in this game because I like playing with my guild. Even so I don't play commando in PVP and that's because the class is crap in PVP. Stick to my shadow or my sentinel which are both much more usable (shadow the most fun of those three for me personally).

Edit: Pretty sure Dispatch hits harder than Demo Round when it crits, but that may just be the result of power stacking. Also they'll start being able to use it on targets without needing execute level HP on occasion.

Are you really saying that even with electro net the changes for commando aren't very clearly inferior to the goodies others are getting?
In update 2.9 the game will simply uninstall itself for you.

-Wnd

Smashbrother's Avatar


Smashbrother
02.11.2013 , 01:17 AM | #1148
Quote: Originally Posted by ArchangelLBC View Post
If they're smash spec it's the easiest thing in the world to use blade storm then stasis. Easy enough to use that on any spec not combat (I'd honestly forgotten cauterize's initial hit was melee. Never play watchman). On combat you can use sweep to clear it out.
You realize how hard a focus spec blade storm hits? I regularly crit it for 4.5k. I'd be fine absorbing that one too. Sweep is melee range too, so it runs into the same issue as cauterize. When I knock them away, they can't hit me with it. But once again, the fact that diversion is off GCD means I decide when I want it to absorb something. The enemy cannot get around it like they would be able to if it was on the GCD.



Quote:
It's one attack. Period. And no I've not played wow past like level 20 years and years ago. Here and now though, you'll get one free absorb, and smart players will make sure they clear it out before using their big yellow damage attack.
One attack can make or break a fight easily. Absorbing a huge hit or CC will turn the fight to your favor.

Ok so you haven't played WoW so that means you don't understand how useful this ability is. I know how useful it is because in WoW one class has the exact same ability called grounding totem, but grounding totem was not off GCD and it was a physical object so you could just whack it with autoattack to remove it. Diversion has neither of these issues and it's usefulness will depend completely on your skill and ability to read the situation to time it right.

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Honestly that isn't even a timing thing. You should knockback and then pop diversion immediately. You don't want to eat the Ravage and once knocked back they're out of ranged force abilities to clear the buff besides Blade Storm. And it's good to know I can completely negate carnage's most easily countered combo without using a stun. I still have to look out for Zen > PS > Blade Rush Spam with a Blade storm in there somewhere. If they anticipate they'll use BS early (if they already have an ataru proc granting auto crit they'll definitely do this. Nothing you can really do about PS > BR spam if you've already used your knockback sadly =/ Root and run I guess.
It's about absorbing the 100% armor penetration blade storm. That **** hurts like a truck. Regular blade storm isn't nearly as bad cause we got like 30-35% damage red.

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Edit: Pretty sure Dispatch hits harder than Demo Round when it crits, but that may just be the result of power stacking. Also they'll start being able to use it on targets without needing execute level HP on occasion.
Don't think I've ever hit 6k with dispatch. My guardian doesn't have +30% surge for dispatch so it doesn't crit nearly as hard as my commando's demo round which does have that.

Quote:
Are you really saying that even with electro net the changes for commando aren't very clearly inferior to the goodies others are getting?
Net is definitely better than some of the other **** other classes are getting because it's very unique and extremely useful for gibbing classes in RWZ. They can't escape, thus they die.

Saber reflect sounds cool, but it's most likely only for guardians and they need love badly because focus guardians weren't that bad since they're easy as **** to kill, and vig guardians are super lols. Vig didn't really get **** for buffs either. Still only dps tree with no 30% surge talent.

Force barrier is pretty awesome, but it says it's channeled, so you can just luls interrupt it. GG. There is only ever 1 sage in RWZs, so it won't be hard to interrupt him.

Phase walk is extremely cool will will completely change the way huttball is played, but net will neutralize it. GG.

Smuggler roll is just ok because that damn roll on snipers is buggy as ****, and half the time you don't even roll forward and I doubt BW made it 100% reliable. But once again, net neuters it. GG.

And I'm also not sure if commandos will get that shoulder cannon or not because it sounds something for VGs, but at the same time the word cannon is in it...

cashogy_reborn's Avatar


cashogy_reborn
02.11.2013 , 01:38 AM | #1149
honestly, there is no point getting your panties in a bunch yet fellas.

all of this datamined crap is great for a basic overall picture, but how can any of us pass judgement on it before a) we see it in yellow text, b) we actually get to play with it ourselves, and c) get to see how it relates in-game to the changes other classes have got.


theorycrafting is great for taking numbers and doing some plug-and-chug math. but when you are trying to predict fight outcomes based on completely hypothetical descriptions (lets face it, thats all these abilities are at this point) there is literally no point.
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Pefny's Avatar


Pefny
02.11.2013 , 03:02 AM | #1150
Quote: Originally Posted by Smashbrother View Post
Saber reflect doesn't prevent you from getting CCed, nor does it prevent you from taking damage. Also, saber reflect is most likely going to be for guardians since there is a talent that buffs it in the guardian tank tree, but there's no mention of it in the sent trees.
Yeah but it's only yours guesses confronted with my guesses . Untill we see actual changes in game we can run this to infinity and still don't get any agreement.
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