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Please address lack of balance between DPS specs

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion
Please address lack of balance between DPS specs

SoonerJBD's Avatar


SoonerJBD
10.27.2012 , 12:38 PM | #1
Devs said months ago that all DPS specs are intended to be within 5 percent of each other in PvE. This is clearly not the case. Parses and SimC data all show that Sentinels, Marauders, Snipers and Gunslingers parse at the top. The trooper and bounty hunter DPS specs are slightly behind. Shadows/Assasins can parse well with balance/madness spec but infiltration and deception are still far too low on PvE. DPS Sages/Sorcs are roughly 10 percent behind the top specs with Scoundrels not even in the same ballpark to the point that I've actually never seen a DPS Scoundrel in a raid.

This has been brought up repeatedly on the forums with no response whatsoever from the developers. There have been two major patches since parse data began showing these disparities with another on the PTS right now. Balance changes have been made for PvP, but there has been no effort to address the disparity between DPS specs in PvE. Is it still the developers' intent to have all DPS specs be within 5 percent of each other in PvE? If so, why aren't changes being made to address the fact that this is clearly not happening?

Stenrik's Avatar


Stenrik
10.27.2012 , 12:47 PM | #2
At this point I'm wondering if the devs are just using simulations instead of human players in order to determine dps output. What do we know about their metrics? Maybe computer controlled "classes" are over/under-performing compared to human players, making the devs think that they really are within 5% of each other?

That said, some classes just require more skill to get the right output. As someone with a dps scoundrel (yeah, laugh at me, I heal too) I can attest that there is very little room for error without dipping below ideal energy and taking a hit in dps because of it. Maybe their simulations don't account for these errors.

I agree they still need to address the gap though.

Slurmez's Avatar


Slurmez
10.27.2012 , 12:55 PM | #3
The problem stems from over use of metrics and spreadsheets, just because something should be doing something because math says so doesn't necessarily translate into actuality.

Its one of my bugbears, math and metrics has to be taken part and parcel with real time experience but active, seat of pants design seems to have been abandoned.

Typeslice's Avatar


Typeslice
10.27.2012 , 12:57 PM | #4
Quote: Originally Posted by SoonerJBD View Post
Devs said months ago that all DPS specs are intended to be within 5 percent of each other in PvE. This is clearly not the case. Parses and SimC data all show that Sentinels, Marauders, Snipers and Gunslingers parse at the top. The trooper and bounty hunter DPS specs are slightly behind. Shadows/Assasins can parse well with balance/madness spec but infiltration and deception are still far too low on PvE. DPS Sages/Sorcs are roughly 10 percent behind the top specs with Scoundrels not even in the same ballpark to the point that I've actually never seen a DPS Scoundrel in a raid.

This has been brought up repeatedly on the forums with no response whatsoever from the developers. There have been two major patches since parse data began showing these disparities with another on the PTS right now. Balance changes have been made for PvP, but there has been no effort to address the disparity between DPS specs in PvE. Is it still the developers' intent to have all DPS specs be within 5 percent of each other in PvE? If so, why aren't changes being made to address the fact that this is clearly not happening?
I'm infiltration, in and end-game guild and I parse with the big boys. It's not nearly as bad as you make it seem. What is your actual sample size of the lower dps specs? Are you just basing it on what you read on here?
Xaph'an / A'baddon - GM of Undercon
The Shadowlands
http://undercon.guildlaunch.com

SoonerJBD's Avatar


SoonerJBD
10.27.2012 , 01:12 PM | #5
My sample size is everyone posting their parses on Torparse and AskMrRobot, which is quite a lot. Go look at the ranked parses. Go look at the statistics on Torparse. The vast majority of the top DPS parses on ops bosses are from the same classes. And this isn't a personal QQ thread. My main is a Sage, and I can clear content just fine. I even have some parses on the ranked list on Torparse. But on the average, certain classes just parse better than others. A Marauder can roll his face across the keyboard and do better DPS than a Scoundrel. That's not right.

SoonerJBD's Avatar


SoonerJBD
10.27.2012 , 01:15 PM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by Stenrik View Post
At this point I'm wondering if the devs are just using simulations instead of human players in order to determine dps output. What do we know about their metrics? Maybe computer controlled "classes" are over/under-performing compared to human players, making the devs think that they really are within 5% of each other?

That said, some classes just require more skill to get the right output. As someone with a dps scoundrel (yeah, laugh at me, I heal too) I can attest that there is very little room for error without dipping below ideal energy and taking a hit in dps because of it. Maybe their simulations don't account for these errors.

I agree they still need to address the gap though.
The problem is that the simulations show the same disparities. SimC outputs for Scoundrels are about 12 percent behind Snipers. It's generally agreed and supported by the parsing data that Sentinels and Marauders do the best DPS, and they weren't even plugged into the SimC results last I saw them. This isn't a theoretical question. SimC can plug in stats for best in slot gear for each class and then simulate the best rotations. You can easily see what the DPS potential for a spec is. The real-world parse data backs this up.

SoonerJBD's Avatar


SoonerJBD
10.27.2012 , 01:24 PM | #7
To be clear, I am not saying that certain DPS classes can't clear content. The issue is that those classes need better gear and/or better skill to put out the same DPS as other classes. When you are progression raiding, this is a serious issue.

The SimC data shows this very clearly. The difference between the top specs and the bottom specs is 10-12 percent. So if a DPS Scoundrel is putting out 1500 DPS, a Sentinel can put out 1680 DPS in the same gear and with the same skill level.

The devs have said the difference is supposed to be closer to 5 percent, which I think most people agree is acceptable. But 10-12 percent is not acceptable.

RSLeMire's Avatar


RSLeMire
10.27.2012 , 01:25 PM | #8
meh... idc what your numbers say, skill levels the playing field every time.
"Whatever our fate, let us meet it as Jedi."

SoonerJBD's Avatar


SoonerJBD
10.27.2012 , 01:28 PM | #9
Quote: Originally Posted by RSLeMire View Post
meh... idc what your numbers say, skill levels the playing field every time.
No, it doesn't. This game is based on math. A Sniper will put out 12 percent more DPS than a Scoundrel of the EXACT SAME skill and gear level. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see why this is a problem.

RSLeMire's Avatar


RSLeMire
10.27.2012 , 01:33 PM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by SoonerJBD View Post
No, it doesn't. This game is based on math. A Sniper will put out 12 percent more DPS than a Scoundrel of the EXACT SAME skill and gear level. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see why this is a problem.
Put me next to that sniper in the same gear and lets see the disparity.
"Whatever our fate, let us meet it as Jedi."