Just as a basis of comparison, I played a tank (Prot War and Blood DK) since Vanilla WoW, and can't seem to find a concrete answer to this question about how Taunt actually works in this game.

I was a pretty heavy Theorycrafter back in my raiding days and knew that a taunt caused your threat to surpass the highest threat generator for a period of time allowing you to then build more threat to overtake aggro once the taunt timer ran out (basically). The numbers were much more complex than that, but this isn't WoW, so I need a fresh perspective.

I've read somewhere on these forums that Taunt will basically force the mob to attack you for 6 seconds, but it doesn't really explain how. This is important, because without a dedicated threat meter it becomes increasingly more important to know exactly what's going as far as the DPS' threat is concerned. I've read that some of the Op Bosses are on very short enrage timers so dps has to go all out. These numbers would help tanks maintain control.

So how does it work? Does taunt reset the threat completely? If it doesn't, to what degree does it alter the threat?

What I'm looking for is whether taunt will actually just cause the mob to focus on you and then it's up to you to increase the aggro past the highest aggro producer? Does Taunt equalize aggro with the highest or does it actually bump up your aggro more than the highest aggro producer a certain percentage? Does that aggro then disappear after the six seconds expecting that you've surpassed the highest aggro producer? Is it a frank reset?

Does anyone have any numbers or can lend some insight?

The basic run down is as such:

Taunt has 2 distinct and different mechanics involved in it. The first is that Taunt applies a debuff to the target that forces said target to attack you for 6 seconds. The second is that, upon using Taunt, your threat is immediately increased to the required amount of threat that would be required to cause the target to switch targets to attack you *even if you already have threat*.

The first effect is relatively simple to understand, though there it gets a bit more complex when you're dealing with Taunting an already Taunted target (if the target already has a Taunt debuff on them, your Taunt is wasted). The second is predicated upon an understanding of the threat and aggro mechanics TOR uses.

First off, unlike many other games on the market, threat doesn't degrade over the course of a fight. The only way to lose aggro is to be hit with a specific threat drop ability (many bosses have these, generally attached to KB effects, but there are loads of player abilities that drop your threat to some extent as well). As such, any threat you generate is, for all intents and purposes, permanent. Beyond that, to determine if and when you lose aggro (and thereby determine how much threat you "gain" when using Taunt), you have to factor in your current range from the target. In melee range (iirc, it's 2m, not the 4m that is required for attacks; for many bosses you have to literally be inside of their model to count as being in "melee" for the purposes of threat range determination), you only require 110% of the current top target's threat to steal aggro (re: the tank has 1000 threat, it would take 1100 threat to cause the target to switch). When you are outside of the "melee" range, you require 130%, instead (re: 1000 threat requires 1300 threat). As this applies to taunts, it simply means that you generate more threat when you're not standing inside of your target's model.

Once you understand this, it's all relatively simple.

Taunt places you at the top of the aggro table, immediately generating 130% of the highest amount of threat at the time of the taunt if you're at max melee range (4 meters). Let's say a DPS pulls aggro off you by generating a total of 1000 threat. If you taunt, your threat will be set at 1300 immediately.

If you're closer than maximum melee range then it's 110%; in the above example taunt would grant you 1100 threat. This doesn't disappear after six seconds but if during those six seconds someone surpasses your threat level (by the required amount, either 110% or 130%, depending on range), they will pull the mob off of you when that time period is over.

That, however, really should not happen unless you just ignore the mob in question (or the DPS outgear you obscenely): all tanking stances automatically generate 200% threat - that means that an ability that does 1000 damage generates 2000 threat. Some abilities (like Guardian Slash and Hilt Strike or Shadows' Slow Time and Force Breach) have an extra threat modifier as well, the exact numbers can be easily calculated by simply looking at a parsed combat log. For example, if Guardian Slash hits for 1000 it generates 2600 threat.

The basic run down is as such:

 

Taunt has 2 distinct and different mechanics involved in it. The first is that Taunt applies a debuff to the target that forces said target to attack you for 6 seconds. The second is that, upon using Taunt, your threat is immediately increased to the required amount of threat that would be required to cause the target to switch targets to attack you *even if you already have threat*.

 

The first effect is relatively simple to understand, though there it gets a bit more complex when you're dealing with Taunting an already Taunted target (if the target already has a Taunt debuff on them, your Taunt is wasted). The second is predicated upon an understanding of the threat and aggro mechanics TOR uses.

 

First off, unlike many other games on the market, threat doesn't degrade over the course of a fight. The only way to lose aggro is to be hit with a specific threat drop ability (many bosses have these, generally attached to KB effects, but there are loads of player abilities that drop your threat to some extent as well). As such, any threat you generate is, for all intents and purposes, permanent. Beyond that, to determine if and when you lose aggro (and thereby determine how much threat you "gain" when using Taunt), you have to factor in your current range from the target. In melee range (iirc, it's 2m, not the 4m that is required for attacks; for many bosses you have to literally be inside of their model to count as being in "melee" for the purposes of threat range determination), you only require 110% of the current top target's threat to steal aggro (re: the tank has 1000 threat, it would take 1100 threat to cause the target to switch). When you are outside of the "melee" range, you require 130%, instead (re: 1000 threat requires 1300 threat). As this applies to taunts, it simply means that you generate more threat when you're not standing inside of your target's model.

 

Once you understand this, it's all relatively simple.

Sorry this doesn't make any sense. How is threat "permanent"? It sounds like what you are saying si that once you have aggro, you can't lose it which is certainly not the case.

I don't think you're right here. You're basically saying that once I've serpassed threat from a group member, they can't take it away from me. Can't be. Sorry. No way that it doesn't degrade. That mechanic would be insanely easy, which it's not.

This is exactly the probelm. I can certainly confirm you're wrong, but why is it that you believe this? Based on what information?

Taunt places you at the top of the aggro table, immediately generating 130% of the highest amount of threat at the time of the taunt if you're at max melee range (4 meters). Let's say a DPS pulls aggro off you by generating a total of 1000 threat. If you taunt, your threat will be set at 1300 immediately.

 

If you're closer than maximum melee range then it's 110%; in the above example taunt would grant you 1100 threat. This doesn't disappear after six seconds but if during those six seconds someone surpasses your threat level (by the required amount, either 110% or 130%, depending on range), they will pull the mob off of you when that time period is over.

 

That, however, really should not happen unless you just ignore the mob in question (or the DPS outgear you obscenely): all tanking stances automatically generate 200% threat - that means that an ability that does 1000 damage generates 2000 threat. Some abilities (like Guardian Slash and Hilt Strike or Shadows' Slow Time and Force Breach) have an extra threat modifier as well, the exact numbers can be easily calculated by simply looking at a parsed combat log. For example, if Guardian Slash hits for 1000 it generates 2600 threat.

This makes waaaay more sense.

Sorry this doesn't make any sense. How is threat "permanent"? It sounds like what you are saying si that once you have aggro, you can't lose it which is certainly not the case.

In some MMOs, threat (the numerical consideration that determines whether you have aggro on a target or not) degrades naturally over time, meaning that, if you generate 1000 threat on a target in a single attack, later on down the road, you'll have less than 1000 threat on the target if you attacked them other than that first attack (generally there is a percent degradation in total threat per target every second or so). In TOR, this isn't true, which is why I said threat is permanent; 1000 threat is 1000 threat for the entire fight. You can still lose aggro if someone else gets more threat on that target than you (1100 if you're in the ~2m melee range or 1300 if you're not). The only way to lose threat is an ability that explicitly reduces your threat as part of its effect (Rescue, Guardian Leap, lots of boss KBs, Focused Defense, etc.), but, since there is no natural threat degradation, there *is* a point wherein it's impossible for someone to steal threat from you naturally (re: without your own threat being reduced by an ability or the other person using taunt).

If you wanna try and test this out, on a boss without any complex aggro mechanics (no threat drops or other designed need to taunt), Taunt like a nutjob (re: every time they're on CD) until the boss is at 50% hp and then stop attacking (only do this if you're fighting a boss that you're not going to hit the enrage timer on). If you've been taunting like you should, since you're regularly multiplying your threat by 1.3 every 15 seconds, you'll have so much threat you won't lose aggro even if you completely ignore the target.

It's important to realize that there is a difference (not always remembered by most players) between aggro (who is currently being targeted) and threat (the damage based consideration that determines who exactly is being targeted). Threat is permanent unless explicitly reduced by a known effect (or, you know, death). Aggro is determined by examining current threat level and range from the target. Taunt effects both of those. It gives you aggro (by forcing the target to attack you for 6 seconds regardless of threat) and provides you with threat (by setting your threat to 110% or 130% the value of the current highest threat).

These unnecessarily long answers are not getting into the main point about taunt mechanics in swtor

Let's say a DPS pulls aggro off you by generating a total of 1000 threat. If you taunt, your threat will be set at 1300 immediately.

It's not just about when dps pulls aggro off you.

When you taunt in SWTOR your threat will be increased to 10%/30% higher than the current highest threat before the taunt even if that highest threat was on the same person who taunted.

This is where SWTOR taunt is different from many other mmo games.

In many other if you already have aggro, then taunt will do nothing.

In SWTOR if you taunt when you already have aggro, your own threat will still be increased by 10%/30%.

Therefore (if the fight does not have tank switches or threat resets for which you would need to save your taunt) you should always keep using your taunts every time they are available to increase your threat and with every taunt get more and more ahead of the dps in threat making it less likely for the dps to overaggro the longer the fight has been going on.

These unnecessarily long answers are not getting into the main point about taunt mechanics in swtor

 

 

 

It's not just about when dps pulls aggro off you.

 

When you taunt in SWTOR your threat will be increased to 10%/30% higher than the current highest threat before the taunt even if that highest threat was on the same person who taunted.

Mate, my VERY FIRST sentence was this:

"Taunt places you at the top of the aggro table, immediately generating 130% of the highest amount of threat at the time of the taunt if you're at max melee range (4 meters)."

You were a heavy theorycrafter in WoW. Taunt mechanics were very simple in WoW. SWTOR uses the exact same two-part mechanic apart from two unexpected differences.

1) Taunts set your number of threat points on the target's threat list to 110% or 130% of the current highest aggro holder rather than 100% like in WoW.

2) The amount of threat you get set to is either 110% or 130% depending on whether you are in or out of a specific range of the mob. The border between "melee" and "ranged" does not match your tooltips. On a test dummy it is 2.75m. This may well be because your abilities check range to the edge of the hitbox and the mob checks from the centre of the hitbox to determine aggro behaviour or it could be universal to all mobs.

And just like WoW, threat is permanent and does not degrade.

Edit: Discussed exhaustively in this thread.

Not sure I agree with all this and here's why.

I was just in Hammerstation and did a test. Your theories failed.

Taunt a mob and it then starts attacking me. Didn't touch it, and neither did anyone else. Why would mob switch targets after a few seconds (6 I presume, but didn't count). This wouldn't happen with the model described and this is exactly how it worked with WoW. If I only focus on one mob the others will turn to the highest threat producer, if I'm not focused on THAT mob. I hold aggro on Boss, but an add CAN get away. If your model was accurate and I taunted every mob in turn, there wouldn't be an issue, right?

Threat is generated all around, not to the mob being attacked. Highest threat gets aggro of a mob not focused on, hence why tanking with a Prot War in WoW was a Tab festival.

Comments?

Ron: healer threat is global, for obvious reasons (healers do not actually attack the mobs in an "ideal" scenario) but heals also generate threat equivalent to 50% of their value (a 5000 heal generates 2500 threat).

Otherwise, all mobs have their own separate aggro table; the mob's aggro is determined by the damage dealt to that particular mob. If, as in your example, nobody deals any damage, then the healer will inevitably pull aggro.

If you DON'T open with Taunt but build up sufficient threat and then taunt, your experiment will work out differently because of the 110%/130% mechanic we mentioned. But 110% and 130% of zero is still zero: that's why you should never ever open with Taunt.

Ron: healer threat is global, for obvious reasons (healers do not actually attack the mobs in an "ideal" scenario) but heals also generate threat equivalent to 50% of their value (a 5000 heal generates 2500 threat).

 

Otherwise, all mobs have their own separate aggro table; the mob's aggro is determined by the damage dealt to that particular mob. If, as in your example, nobody deals any damage, then the healer will inevitably pull aggro.

 

If you DON'T open with Taunt but build up sufficient threat and then taunt, your experiment will work out differently because of the 110%/130% mechanic we mentioned. But 110% and 130% of zero is still zero: that's why you should never ever open with Taunt.

Now we're getting somewhere.

I never open with Taunt. It's always a last resort for me. Why is the CD so long?? Just saying...

When I played a rogue in WoW, and went crazy in a group/raid I had a flood of mobs all over me, so the mechanics here are different than in WoW. That was more of a "Global" threat issue, which according to most here is not the case in this game.

Here's another question. I haven't tried it yet, but what "should" happen in this scenario. If I taunt a CC'd mob, firstly will it break CC? Secondly, if it doesn't will the mob then beeline for me once the cc wears off or I break it myself, since I've surpassed the threat from the CCer?

No, taunt won't break CC (AoE taunts would be significantly less useful if the opposite were the case). Yes, if the CC somehow breaks within the 6 second period, the mob will attack you. After the 6 sec period... it depends on who breaks it, does it expire on its own, how much damage was done to the mob before CC and by who, how much threat the healer generated etc.

If you CC a mob at the start of the fight before any damage was dealt to it, it will almost certainly go for the healer once the CC expires. Let's say you taunt it from range at 53 seconds of a 60 sec CC: at that point you'll have 130% of the threat the healer generated up to that point. In the remaining 7 seconds (assuming nobody hits the CCd mob) of the CC the healer, in all probability, won't generate enough threat to surpass that; therefore the mob will attack you even though the 6 second period would be over by that point.

No, taunt won't break CC (AoE taunts would be significantly less useful if the opposite were the case). Yes, if the CC somehow breaks within the 6 second period, the mob will attack you. After the 6 sec period... it depends on who breaks it, does it expire on its own, how much damage was done to the mob before CC and by who, how much threat the healer generated etc.

 

If you CC a mob at the start of the fight before any damage was dealt to it, it will almost certainly go for the healer once the CC expires. Let's say you taunt it from range at 53 seconds of a 60 sec CC: at that point you'll have 130% of the threat the healer generated up to that point. In the remaining 7 seconds (assuming nobody hits the CCd mob) of the CC the healer, in all probability, won't generate enough threat to surpass that; therefore the mob will attack you even though the 6 second period would be over by that point.

I still need some clarification once again because I tried this and it didn't work.

Taunt a cc'd mob. if threat is permanent as suggested, as long as no one touches the mob, and heals are minimal (for trash let's say), if cc wears off, the mob should go straight for me. It doesn't. It STILL goes after the party member that cc'd the mob in the first place.

Somehow the mechanics are not working the way they are intended.

Mob is CC'd which puts the threat on that mob highest towards the party member that CC'd the mob in question.

I taunt. IF threat is permanent and NO ONE touches that mob, and heals are moderate why would the mob beeline for the party member that cc'd it rather than the healer?? Doesn't make sense.

I tested this in Athiss last night, and it happened just that way. Party member CCs a mob, I taunt it, nobody touches it ( I know this because CC didn't break), healer keeping me up, CC breaks and mob heads right for the DPS that CC'd it. Explain please. This lends itself more to the fact that threat DOES decay. Doesn't it?

Taunt a cc'd mob.

"Healing is minimal" still means that healing has happened and healgro has been generated. If you're taunting after there has already been a decent bit of aggro on the target (like it's been punched in the face a few times or you actually waited longer than 4 seconds for healgro to be generated) and right before the CC breaks naturally such that, in the time frame between the taunt and the CC break, there hast been substantially less healing occur than happened before you taunted, the mob should go straight for you.

You need to provide more information to validate your claim that threat isn't working like we told you it was because, from what you're saying, it sounds like the target was CCd, you immediately threw your taunt at it, started punching other stuff, and then expected to still have aggro on the target almost 60 seconds later regardless of the fact that, even though healing aggro is generated at 50% of the rate as threat via damage, healing aggro has still been generated in excess of the threat you generated with Taunt by a very substantial margin (60 seconds of healing, even at a minimal level, is going to pretty easily outstrip whatever healing was done in the initial volley while CC was being applied).

"Healing is minimal" still means that healing has happened and healgro has been generated. If you're taunting after there has already been a decent bit of aggro on the target (like it's been punched in the face a few times or you actually waited longer than 4 seconds for healgro to be generated) and right before the CC breaks naturally such that, in the time frame between the taunt and the CC break, there hast been substantially less healing occur than happened before you taunted, the mob should go straight for you.

 

You need to provide more information to validate your claim that threat isn't working like we told you it was because, from what you're saying, it sounds like the target was CCd, you immediately threw your taunt at it, started punching other stuff, and then expected to still have aggro on the target almost 60 seconds later regardless of the fact that, even though healing aggro is generated at 50% of the rate as threat via damage, healing aggro has still been generated in excess of the threat you generated with Taunt by a very substantial margin (60 seconds of healing, even at a minimal level, is going to pretty easily outstrip whatever healing was done in the initial volley while CC was being applied).

Dude. You need to read what I wrote more carefully.

The CC'd and taunted mob is NOT going after the HEALER. It's going after the party member that CC'd the mob. If what you wrote is accurate than it SHOULD go after the HEALER, but it's not.

How in this model is Threat not decaying???

Dude. You need to read what I wrote more carefully.

My bad on that. Misread who it was running after (though if it's a healer that is applying the CC then the statement still applies).

Are you absolutely sure that the CC isn't getting broken by, what I'm assuming, is the DPS that applied it in the first place? Every time I deal with CCed mobs, unless the CC is broken by damage, it either goes after the healer (thanks to healgro) or me (thanks to aggro from an AoE Taunt; I never bother to waste a Taunt on an enemy that's CCd). If it's going after the DPS after you taunted it while it was CCd rather than the healer, it pretty much means that the DPS broke the CC rather than letting it lapse.

Are you going out and testing for these scenarios or simply returning with observations from your gameplay? Unless you're explicitly testing it, I'm not going to err on the side of you not noticing something because it's way more likely that, instead of you explicitly watching and timing the duration of the CC to know that it lapsed, the CCd target got hit with a stray AoE or the DPS decided to shoot the only available target before you got to it. In absolutely everything I have tanked, CCd mobs either go to the tank or the healer unless the DPS decided to get sloppy.

So it's safe to assume that every Tick of the heal caused by the CC generates a minute amount of threat for the player that CC'd the target.

This is only true if the target took damage in the first place. The heal doesn't register unless the target has damage to heal in the first place (look at a CCed mob next time you're in a fight; if it's healing, it'll have the green numbers, otherwise there are none; whereas with normal healing mechanisms, the numbers show up regardless of whether the heal is overheal or not). If the target has taken damage, then the existing threat on the target (since it was applied at a 1.0 threat mod rather than the .5 threat mod for healing) would overshadow any healing threat generated. The only way that the healing from the CC would need to be factored in would be if the target that did the CC was also the one that did that damage that needed to be healed in the first place. Assuming the tank throws out the taunt before the first tick of the CC healing occurs, the healing would be enough to provide enough threat to overshadow the threat from Taunt, which does provide us with logical grounds to explain everything but is predicated upon a number of unlikely actions (DPS hitting a target and then immediately CCing it with the tank almost immediately taunting the newly CCed target).

Like I said before, need more information to provide a definitive answer.

This is only true if the target took damage in the first place. The heal doesn't register unless the target has damage to heal in the first place (look at a CCed mob next time you're in a fight; if it's healing, it'll have the green numbers, otherwise there are none; whereas with normal healing mechanisms, the numbers show up regardless of whether the heal is overheal or not). If the target has taken damage, then the existing threat on the target (since it was applied at a 1.0 threat mod rather than the .5 threat mod for healing) would overshadow any healing threat generated. The only way that the healing from the CC would need to be factored in would be if the target that did the CC was also the one that did that damage that needed to be healed in the first place. Assuming the tank throws out the taunt before the first tick of the CC healing occurs, the healing would be enough to provide enough threat to overshadow the threat from Taunt, which does provide us with logical grounds to explain everything but is predicated upon a number of unlikely actions (DPS hitting a target and then immediately CCing it with the tank almost immediately taunting the newly CCed target).

 

Like I said before, need more information to provide a definitive answer.

Actually you're incorrect here. Any of the in-combat CCs will continue to heal a target past full. Out of combat CCs won't heal the target at all. The numbers will also only appear on your screen if you are the one that did the CC. I'm not sure about the CC heal generating aggro, but it can proc the heal relics (one of the reasons I don't use those) so it doesn't seem unreasonable.

I have also noticed that a CCed mob usually goes for the one that CCed it. Most notably when clearing trash in EC HM our 'Slinger CCs the spider droids when they pat in. By the time we get to those it takes me 1 or 2 hits to gain aggro of him.

Actually you're incorrect here. Any of the in-combat CCs will continue to heal a target past full. Out of combat CCs won't heal the target at all. The numbers will also only appear on your screen if you are the one that did the CC. I'm not sure about the CC heal generating aggro, but it can proc the heal relics (one of the reasons I don't use those) so it doesn't seem unreasonable.

It's been a while since I played my Commando heals and had to use CC, but I don't recall seeing green numbers on the target's head unless it had already taken damage (btw, I was referring to seeing the green numbers when doing the CC yourself since you don't see numbers fly up unless they involve you somehow). Even so, I've never *ever* had a problem pulling threat off of a CCd target, even from healers that applied the debuff in the first place and heals have been tossed like crazy beforehand (and I've gotten a lot of experience with just these types of situations running trash in HM EC). Even when it's a Commando heals dropping Concussive Round and solo healing the entire rest of the pack, it just takes a single Project to make sure that the target is punching me instead, which is why I have to think that the OP simply taunted too early (such that Taunt generated negligible threat) and didn't realize how much healing actually took place.