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PvE class balance needs to be tighter

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes
PvE class balance needs to be tighter

Marak's Avatar


Marak
10.27.2012 , 12:57 AM | #1
So here we are rounding into November and Operatives and Scoundrels are all but extinct because they still struggle to compete. DPS Sages and Sorcs are also on the endangered species list.

If the internal testing is saying operatives are capable of parsing anywhere near 5% of the curve they are wrong, Bioware.

I love my operative. It's by far my favorite character as I loved the story and I love the companions. I'm just tired of having to heal to be useful on this class.

5% difference is fine. No one is going to sweat the difference between 2k dps Maras and a possible 1900 dps operative. This is no where near the case. It's damn near impossible to break 1700 as an Op. Hell even 1600 is a struggle, especially considering how stupidly tight our rotations are. That's a 20% difference. Not even including Mara group cooldowns. Why in the hell would you willingly bring a class that does 20%+ less DPS?

I just don't understand, Bioware. Powertechs are in a solid place right now in this respect. They do similar numbers as Maras but don't bring the group utility. Fair tradeoff imo. Juggs and Assassins are close enough to the curve that it's more forgivable, but they're still lacking comparatively (madness assassins apparently do amazing theoretical dps, but I haven't seen that translated into actuality). Operatives? Yeah.. freaking.. right.

We're coming up on the year marker. Can year 2 be the year of equality? Please?
Cag - Juggernaut | V'ae - Sorcerer | V'ay - Mercenary
<The Jyse Legacy (50)> | Jedi Covenant
Aenik - Assassin | Vhay - Operative | K'rie - Sniper | Vhae - Marauder

SoonerJBD's Avatar


SoonerJBD
10.27.2012 , 01:02 AM | #2
Yup. They said all DPS specs were intended to be within 5 percent of each other. Then they put in combat logging and we now see that some specs aren't even within 10 percent of others, and they haven't said one word about why or whether they intend to fix it. They have had two major patches out since then, with another on the PTS. They made balance changes, even nerfing some of these classes even further for PvP purposes and did nothing to close the disparity in PvE. It's insulting.

Stenrik's Avatar


Stenrik
10.27.2012 , 02:58 AM | #3
Scoundrel dps was the first character I ever played. I was heal spec for most of my time endgame, but switched to dps later. I remember first parsing on the dummy and struggling with it. I really had to concentrate, and one or 2 mistakes would put a big dent in my dps. I was wearing good gear, about Rakata level, actually with some black hole too as I recall.

Then I capped a powertech tank and specced pyro dps for the first time ever. My gear was pretty entry level - just daily mods level and Rakata earpiece/implants, non-augmented. Don't remember what my aim was, less than 1500 I think.

I found the pyro rotation straightforward and very forgiving, and was amazed to see I was doing almost as well as my geared scoundrel. After only 3 minutes on the dummy in worse gear! I can only imagine what I'd be pulling if I was in the equivalent level gear.

Sure it's fine to have some classes/specs with a higher skill level, but at least make our numbers a little more comparable. I mean this isn't even an issue of pure dps vs. hybrid class either.

(Edit: This was pre-1.4. I haven't parsed or raided on my scoundrel since the patch, but for some reason it feels like I'm hitting harder when doing dailies. Did we get a dmg buff of some kind?)

Chaqen's Avatar


Chaqen
10.27.2012 , 02:27 PM | #4
There is nothing wrong with an OPs damage in a raid format, well at least for lethality. There are a few raiding dps OPs on The Harbringer or at least alts that see a decent amount of play time.

The problem is survivability, utility and the amount of ACs that can fill the role as a melee dps. Look at PTs, Juggs, Sins, Mara; they all have good defensive cool downs and or a higher mitigation rating then a OP. This leads them to having higher survability, then OPs, this also means if played right they will take less damage and be less of a burden on healers.

Lets look at utility: Maras in their current form will always be given a spot due to their group buffs/best defensive CD's in the game (their cd's are better then any of the tanks actually). PTs have some of the best on demand burst in the game (that is easily executed), while having the ability to taunt (and actually have the armour to tank gold mobs in OPs) and the ability to pull mobs. Juggs, have the ability to taunt, intercede raid members (works well as a way to reduce damage done to them, and or lower their threat), they also provide an armour debuff if it isnt present. Sins, have the ability to taunt (but are squishy), can exit combat and rez, cleanse themselves of dots/debuffs. OPs, can exit combat and rez, able to spot heal (but so can 2 different range classes, cleanse themselves and/or others.

The biggest thing that are hurting OP dps in raids though is the fact that most 8 man groups try not to bring more then 2 melee dps. With Marauders basically getting a guaranteed spot based on their raid buffs (they are not needed, but they sure do help when progressing through new content), that leaves one spot open and 4 classes that can fill it. Myself would fill it based on this order of importance PT, Jugg, Sin, OP; the sin would get a spot before an OP based on survivability and uptime on dpsing.

There needs to be something more special about OPs dps then what there currently is, or at least their survivability needs to be increased, but either way i believe OPs will always be seen as a bastard dps due to the number of melee dps, and the size of raids.

TheronFett's Avatar


TheronFett
10.28.2012 , 02:28 AM | #5
Operative DPS has stealth, 2 mezzes, an in-combat rez, an escape ability, multiple stuns, off heals, and the hardest hitting AoE in the game with Orbital Strike.

That's an awful lot of utility, so asking to ramp up their DPS to be comparable to a pure DPS class like Marauder seems a bit over the top...and I play both classes. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

SoonerJBD's Avatar


SoonerJBD
10.28.2012 , 02:20 PM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by TheronFett View Post
Operative DPS has stealth, 2 mezzes, an in-combat rez, an escape ability, multiple stuns, off heals, and the hardest hitting AoE in the game with Orbital Strike.

That's an awful lot of utility, so asking to ramp up their DPS to be comparable to a pure DPS class like Marauder seems a bit over the top...and I play both classes. You can't have your cake and eat it too.
There is no such thing a a pure DPS class in PvE. All DPS classes are pure DPS. We aren't talking about PvP where off heals and stealth have real value. If a DPS is throwing off-heals in an operation, they aren't doing their job and are putting their group in serious danger of hitting enrage. DPS who do this will actually get yelled at by their healers. There are rare occasions where an off-heal is actually a benefit, but Marauders have bloodlust, which is valued far more than the rare off-heal. Stuns don't work on bosses and all heal classes have an in-combat res. And again, rezzing is the healer's job, not the DPS. If you use the phrase "pure DPS class" in one of these discussions, you don't understand the issue.

bryceman's Avatar


bryceman
11.11.2012 , 05:07 AM | #7
What they need to do is nerf inspiration on the sents. and either buff scoundrels or nerf the other classes. In the beginning scoundrels had too much dps but now we have much too little. It is by far the most fun class I have ever played but I am continually pushed aside for sents and sometimes even guardian dps.

RendValor's Avatar


RendValor
11.18.2012 , 01:18 PM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by TheronFett View Post
Operative DPS has stealth, 2 mezzes, an in-combat rez, an escape ability, multiple stuns, off heals, and the hardest hitting AoE in the game with Orbital Strike.
Marauders have team buffs and better defensive cooldowns. That alone trumps any of the "utility" mentioned above, most of which is of little use in a raid environment
The Trayus Legacy - Prophecy of the Five

Chaqen's Avatar


Chaqen
11.18.2012 , 02:25 PM | #9
Quote: Originally Posted by bryceman View Post
What they need to do is nerf inspiration on the sents. and either buff scoundrels or nerf the other classes. In the beginning scoundrels had too much dps but now we have much too little. It is by far the most fun class I have ever played but I am continually pushed aside for sents and sometimes even guardian dps.
If you look at the math inspiration/bloodthrist isnt quite as strong as you would think. Let say during a burst phase all 4 dps are pushing 2k dps, so a total of 8k dps total. BT adds 15% for 15 seconds, so it adds 1200 dps.... for a grand total of 18k more damage, which isnt game breaking imo.

bryceman's Avatar


bryceman
11.18.2012 , 03:11 PM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by Chaqen View Post
If you look at the math inspiration/bloodthrist isnt quite as strong as you would think. Let say during a burst phase all 4 dps are pushing 2k dps, so a total of 8k dps total. BT adds 15% for 15 seconds, so it adds 1200 dps.... for a grand total of 18k more damage, which isnt game breaking imo.
Yes but that doesn't stop the entire community from bashing other melee classes (scrapper scoundrels, Vanguards, guardians). On my server the only time I get to bring in my scrapper scoundrel is if there are literally no other sents available.