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[PvP Guide] Wakaworld: Your resource for advanced Sith Assassin/Jedi Shadow strategy!

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Shadow / Assassin
[PvP Guide] Wakaworld: Your resource for advanced Sith Assassin/Jedi Shadow strategy!

EatenByDistance's Avatar


EatenByDistance
11.09.2012 , 02:47 PM | #81
Quote: Originally Posted by JP_Legatus View Post
Again I agree as I've already stated that death field has great utility and may be worth the loss in dps. However, your guide states more than once that your wakajinn spec has more damage output than standard deception which is misleading and simply isn't the case.
talking about damage in pvp where there are defensive cds, kiting, switching of focus targets and the like is completely different from hitting a dummy over and over, I can't believe I need to explain that

stop talking about parsing or your numbers IT DOES NOT MATTER
Wakalord The Bastion: Hey im mvp
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Quote: Originally Posted by Celsus
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Tiggy's Avatar


Tiggy
11.09.2012 , 02:57 PM | #82
I have to thank you for this guide by the way, in the end I decided to switch towards the hybrid tank spec rather than full tank putting my points first into the madness tree, whereas before I had points in the darkness tree (not max level yet) and just at the utility of instant whirlwind and deathfield. I'm obviously still able to protect as much as I was before but I feel I can contribute more now (instant cc and ranged interupting of capping nodes etc) plus I'm hitting that much harder now to help bring down healers etc.

So thank you
The Nac'mac'feegle Legacy
Healosaurusrex - Afk'sammich - Ohaithar

JP_Legatus's Avatar


JP_Legatus
11.09.2012 , 03:09 PM | #83
Quote: Originally Posted by EatenByDistance View Post
talking about damage in pvp where there are defensive cds, kiting, switching of focus targets and the like is completely different from hitting a dummy over and over, I can't believe I need to explain that

stop talking about parsing or your numbers IT DOES NOT MATTER
1: relax
2: make a point instead of spamming hate
3: I can't make my point any more clear than I did in the quote you included yourself, please read it then respond
4: saying damage is not relevant in pvp is like saying killing healers won't help you win, damage will always be an element of pvp

RankorSSGS's Avatar


RankorSSGS
11.09.2012 , 08:05 PM | #84
Quote: Originally Posted by JP_Legatus View Post
Either you are trolling or... You are trolling, because literally every claim in this paragraph is numerically wrong. I posted because I DID run the numbers.
Vs in one global (on my tooltip) does 1700. Death field hits for 1900. Buffed shock does over 2k base which also does 125% crits as opposed to 75% crits of death field. Then you get a chain shock. Then you wait 15s on df and 6 on shock. There is no comparison in either the sustained or the burst category between these two specs. Deception is higher, period. I could cast shock with no crit buff and no chain proc and wait 15s and it would still deal more damage than DF. Please re evaluate your numbers more closely.
And I find it strange that you include vs usage as an argument since your discharge requires 18s to deal damage, it deals less than surging discharge during crits (using recklessness) and the vast majority of dps scenarios won't even see that reach fruition to begin with. Not to mention a "smaller" cooldown on surge discharge because the dot takes 18s.
Couple things I need to point out.

that post you quoted I was comparing full Deception to the Wakajinn spec. Both run surging charge, I have no idea where you get this notion that my Discharge takes 18 secs. Also, in my current gear, Deathfield crits for about 3k, and non crits for about 1.5-2k. Your telling me that 2 Voltaic stacks adds 2-3k to my shock? Yea, I don't think so. Deathfield and unbuffed shock together will do more damage than a Voltaic buffed shock on its own. Go back to page 2 I think it is, and look at the numbers. Full Deception's burst does not even come close to Wakajinn's.
Vesharia, Zannáh, Xeshara Retired due to broken class
Jetii'ka - Combat/Focus Bloodfrenzie - Carnage/Rage
Pot5/Bastion

RankorSSGS's Avatar


RankorSSGS
11.09.2012 , 08:09 PM | #85
Quote: Originally Posted by JP_Legatus View Post
1: relax
2: make a point instead of spamming hate
3: I can't make my point any more clear than I did in the quote you included yourself, please read it then respond
4: saying damage is not relevant in pvp is like saying killing healers won't help you win, damage will always be an element of pvp
He's not saying damage isn't irrelevant, he's saying numbers obtained from parsing on a dummy are irrelevant, which they are. You just simply cannot compare dummy beating to real pvp. Period. And again, take your own advice, and actually read the stuff that we've posted throughout the thread. Waka has, and is making real points, you are just choosing to ignore them because you do not seem to understand that dummy numbers mean nothing in pvp. You have given absolutely nothing other than numbers from a dummy that cannot fight back. That kind of data belongs in the pve world.
Vesharia, Zannáh, Xeshara Retired due to broken class
Jetii'ka - Combat/Focus Bloodfrenzie - Carnage/Rage
Pot5/Bastion

Xethis's Avatar


Xethis
11.10.2012 , 03:08 AM | #86
Quote: Originally Posted by JP_Legatus View Post
Mm burst better than deception is again very wrong. Please run the numbers.
What people don't realize is that shock double crits for more damage than a maul proc + crit does. It's the highest single(double?) hit in the assassin arsenal.
Your maul does slightly more and you lose out on 7.5k shocks and 4.5k discharges. Simply not higher burst.
You obviously haven't played this spec very much or at all. You cannot "run the numbers" on a spec to determine its potential or viability. MM has Raze which is about 4k-7k damage every time its cast. Sure if you got Recklessness and you get a lucky Chain Shock proc then your Shock can hit for 7k, but its rare. Over 60% of the time you cast your Shock it will do less than 2k damage. Instant Crushing Darkness will never do less than 4k. How about them numbers? If you actually read all the long posts in this thread its been broken down many times, there are lots of numbers to explain how MM can out burst Deception. You are putting way too much stock in your Shock ability.

Xethis's Avatar


Xethis
11.10.2012 , 03:37 AM | #87
Quote: Originally Posted by JP_Legatus View Post
A much better argument, with respect, mad maul does have some pretty good damage. I chose not to use mad maul because it suffers from the same problems as full madness, and I have seen the parsing of the two specs on other threads anyways and deception was higher than everything (including mad maul) except full madness.
Mad Maul will always pull about 50-100 dps more than full Madness, I have explained why many times in this thread, you are not doing something correctly. Mad Maul will always pull 200-300 dps more than Deception. All you Deception fan boi's are so impressed with your big Shocks that it actually blinds you to the time that goes by between those Shocks. The reason Deception will always do less than Madness and Mad Maul is because when Shock and Discharge don't crit they are crap and barely worth the force it costs to cast them. You can almost do the same dps if you take Shock and Discharge out of your rotations, just spam VS and Maul on your EW procs and see what happens.

Xethis's Avatar


Xethis
11.10.2012 , 04:18 AM | #88
Quote: Originally Posted by JP_Legatus View Post
Either you are trolling or... You are trolling, because literally every claim in this paragraph is numerically wrong. I posted because I DID run the numbers.
Vs in one global (on my tooltip) does 1700. Death field hits for 1900. Buffed shock does over 2k base which also does 125% crits as opposed to 75% crits of death field. Then you get a chain shock. Then you wait 15s on df and 6 on shock. There is no comparison in either the sustained or the burst category between these two specs. Deception is higher, period. I could cast shock with no crit buff and no chain proc and wait 15s and it would still deal more damage than DF. Please re evaluate your numbers more closely.
And I find it strange that you include vs usage as an argument since your discharge requires 18s to deal damage, it deals less than surging discharge during crits (using recklessness) and the vast majority of dps scenarios won't even see that reach fruition to begin with. Not to mention a "smaller" cooldown on surge discharge because the dot takes 18s.
Where do I begin, your math is absolutely horrible. Your just using the tooltip and trying to calculate burst potential. You have never parsed these specs yourself, and you have never even tried Mad Maul or Wakajinn.

Are you comparing the DF in Wakajinn or MM? If you claim that DF cannot make up the difference in the damage that you give up from not taking the VS talent for the Wakajinn spec then you are seriously mistaken. Your comparing a non crit DF to a Shock crit+Chain Shock crit. Makes no sense. First off you don't know how rare it is to get a Shock+Chain Shock double crit out side of your Recklessness buff. You are only going to crit on Shock about 1 out of 3. Your Chain Shock is only going to proc about 1 out of 4. I don't think I have ever seen them both crit with out Recklessness, so you using this as argument is ridiculous. That 1900 measly damage that you claim DF hits for is internal damage, a non crit DF is going out damage your non crit Shock because it is not mitigated by armor. More numbers you forgot to factor in. That 1900 internal damage will more than make up for the 30% decrease in Shock damage.

If you are trying to compare to Mad Maul, then you forgot to run more numbers. First off DF is going to have a 95% crit modifier, not 75%. Second your comparing a 6 second Shock to a 15s DF also is wrong. The ability you need to be comparing to your Shock is the Raze proc. An instant Crushing Darkness will always out dps your buffed Shock. CD non crit is about 3.5k-4k damage compared to your Shocks non crit of 2k. With Recklessness buff you will hit for 4.5k-5k, and 1 out of 4 of those will get a Chain Shock and you will hit 7k. A Raze proc with Recklessness will give you 7k+ every time. Then you start comparing Discharges and again your "numbers" are wrong. Yes a Surging Discharge is upfront damage and a third of the time its going to hit for 4k-5k, but the majority of the time its going to hit for less than 2k. A Lightning Discharge is good for 4k every time its cast, and its spammable. You can spread it around to 3-5 people really putting pressure on other teams healers, as far as single target it obviously isn't helping with burst, but it is opening the door for Raze and essentially gives you 100% up time on Exploitive Strikes.

RankorSSGS's Avatar


RankorSSGS
11.10.2012 , 12:07 PM | #89
Thank you for that Xethis, you are much better at explaining these things than I am. Having been playing MM and WJ for the past while, I know I'll never go back to full Deception for serious play.
Vesharia, Zannáh, Xeshara Retired due to broken class
Jetii'ka - Combat/Focus Bloodfrenzie - Carnage/Rage
Pot5/Bastion

Xethis's Avatar


Xethis
11.11.2012 , 03:34 AM | #90
Wakajinn is legit people! Last night I had my first legit 2v1 and I want to tell you guys how bad *** it was. The spec I use is just a tiny bit different than they Wakalords, I run http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#200ZfGbRzfbRbZf0cRb.2 I basically trade the reduced force cost of DF for some added defense with Insulation and I like to have full crit potential from my Thrashes. I know 50 force for DF is quite a bit, but I found I use this ability pretty sparingly. On a 1v1 when Im taking a node from a single defender I usually open up with this and Im in my Dark Embrace buff, and the only other times is when I see some people grouped up, or stopping caps. I have yet to not have sufficient force when I need to use DF. Anyways, back to my 2v1.

So I am guarding a door all by myself in a Void Star when I see 19k health Mara and a 20k health Assassin trotting my way. I have been successful against multiple opponents before but they where bads in recruit gear. When I see these two coming at me in WH gear my only goal is to survive long enough for help to arrive. Instead of just playing the sap game till others come I decide to go balls out to see what this spec can really do. I open first on the Mara with Reck/Shock/Dishcarge, I get an EW proc and stun him to get behind him and Maul. Just as I land Maul the second VS hits me from the Sin, I Force Shroud to avoid Sins big hits and keep working on the Mara. I Thrash once and then Assassinate. Just as Shroud buff ends the Mara is at about 5% health and finish him with DF, and it hits the Sin too for my first attack on him. The Mara is dead and the other Sin and I are both at about 85%, I am in great position to battle the Sin. I Force Cloak and Spike him. I only have one stack of Induction but I reset my Dark Embrace buff so I don't need two stacks. I Shock him when he is down and I am pretty sure he is still looking to hit me with a big Shock crit to the face so I hit Force Slow and do my best to stay on his six. My Force Slow procs EW so I hit Low Slash. He still has not been able to get me with his Shock/Dishcarge and he has only landed to VS's on me lol. When I get behind him I Maul him and activate Black Out. Since I am in Dark Embrace again I do not bother with Induction stacks. We both Shock each other but I have over 50% damage mitigation at this time. He is now below 30% and I am well above 50%. I Assassinate and then finish him with a huge 4.5k Discharge and he is trying to build VS stacks on me lol.

I utterly destroyed these two guys. Granted I did catch the Mara with out his defensive cooldowns so I got lucky with that, and the Sin did fail to stun or cc me in any way. But they both underestimated me and how much damage I could do. I do believe that this spec gave me some huge advantages that no other Sin spec could offer. First, all my burst was front loaded with absolutely no need for any set up. I was able to kill that Mara so fast that he probably thought there was a BH pew pew'n him around the corner. Second, I really did not need Induction stacks for cheaper Shocks, while the Sin I was fighting was desperately trying to get his VS stacks on me, I was not forced to set up my burst so I had a huge advantage over him. Lastly I was unpredictable, Wakalord has claimed this is one of the strongest traits of this spec and he is dead on with that assessment.

There is absolutely no way I could have done this with Mad Maul, Deception or 23-1-17. Wakajinn is the only way to go for pvp.