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[PvP Guide] Wakaworld: Your resource for advanced Sith Assassin/Jedi Shadow strategy!

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Shadow / Assassin
[PvP Guide] Wakaworld: Your resource for advanced Sith Assassin/Jedi Shadow strategy!

RankorSSGS's Avatar


RankorSSGS
10.30.2012 , 05:15 PM | #31
Quote: Originally Posted by ComputerSaidNo View Post
But the MM spec isn't grabbing anything except for the +30% crit damage on maul that adds to it's burst. It can't take advantage of the shock buff from Induction because that requires you to be in surging charge. The other argument might be the extra force regen from dark embrace but with deathmark and calculating mind you shouldn't really be starved for force.

I feel that its sustained DPS would be lower than madness and its burst lower than deception (or deception based builds) and not far off from madness so I just can't see this spec as a competitor. But I haven't actually tested it so I'll reserve further judgement until I do
That's what I thought as well, if you read my earlier posts. But I trust that Xethis is giving us real, truthful data, and not making up garbage, and those numbers are impressive. That is why I also am going back to trying MM again, and looking at what results I get before I make further judgments. If that data is realistic, I'll find out. I mean, I played Surging Charge 13/28 Arika quite extensively pre 1.4, and the burst from it was impressive. And by all accounts, Lightning Charge 14/27 has even more burst, so it seems that the possibility is there. Have not been able to do many warzones lately, but I am going to be testing it whenever I can, and if it means anything at all, it does have some impressive burst phases in the pve that I have been doing, and I can see it also having a great effect in pvp. Looking forward to more testing.
Vesharia, Zannáh, Xeshara Retired due to broken class
Jetii'ka - Combat/Focus Bloodfrenzie - Carnage/Rage
Pot5/Bastion

JP_Legatus's Avatar


JP_Legatus
10.30.2012 , 05:20 PM | #32
The 1mil guy had 97 kills, obv it was a voidstar
His dps more importantly was 1200. Even with discharge spam on all 8 players every 18 seconds I'm not sure I could do that

I do agree with you on deception helping more in some situations, but madness actually has more burst because you can spam mauls with a damage bonus while you also have 3 dots ticking on him vs deception with just individual hits.

I think deception has always been and is the best tho for the reasons you mentioned but I'm going to try to get 1200 dps

EatenByDistance's Avatar


EatenByDistance
10.30.2012 , 05:53 PM | #33
Quote: Originally Posted by RankorSSGS View Post
But I trust that Xethis is giving us real, truthful data, and not making up garbage, and those numbers are impressive. That is why I also am going back to trying MM again, and looking at what results I get before I make further judgments. If that data is realistic, I'll find out.
You guys really can't rely on dps parsing for PvP, that's really dumb and it isn't even a good general/basic estimate of how a spec performs. If that were the case nobody would play 23/1/17 or Rage specs (one dummy in most parses=no Smash aoe etc).

That said, idk what was going on for the 12 second "burst" parse of 0/27/14. I averaged ~2200, much more than Xethis' parse.

And parsing anything more than that is a complete waste of time. I mean, seriously, are you ever going to dps every GCD for four minutes straight? You won't do that every 30 seconds. It's a complete waste of time and the data is irrelevant even if I got the same results. Parsing is one of the most pointless things you can do to judge PvP specs.

and no, I'm not being mean. Just because I'm using it to invalidate someone's idea doesn't mean I'm a dick or upset that not everybody agrees with my spec. It's a fact.
Wakalord The Bastion: Hey im mvp
Watch my stream!
Quote: Originally Posted by Xerain
...and the only person who doesn't think so is some B-team assassin DPS who is just dragging his team down by playing the incorrect spec.

RankorSSGS's Avatar


RankorSSGS
10.30.2012 , 05:57 PM | #34
Quote: Originally Posted by JP_Legatus View Post
The 1mil guy had 97 kills, obv it was a voidstar
His dps more importantly was 1200. Even with discharge spam on all 8 players every 18 seconds I'm not sure I could do that

I do agree with you on deception helping more in some situations, but madness actually has more burst because you can spam mauls with a damage bonus while you also have 3 dots ticking on him vs deception with just individual hits.

I think deception has always been and is the best tho for the reasons you mentioned but I'm going to try to get 1200 dps
Ok, I went and found those screenshots, few things here. First of all, I'm not trying to discredit you, your guildie, or Madness in any way, shape, or form. Just so we are clear on that.

That 1mil voidstar. I'm not going to lie, I was incredibly surprised by that. Your guildie deserves some serious props for that, even if it is one of those blue moon games. He falls into the same category as my guildie, those who can do amazing things with Madness. The spec does have incredible potential, I have always agreed on that. And 1108 dps, while not the 1200 you said, is still certainly impressive. He does have the lowest objective points by a large amount of any on his team, but doing that kind of damage, I'm guessing he spent a lot of time transferring side to side wherever the action is, so the lower objective score is totally understandable. Unfortunately I cannot see how far he got as the attacker, but based off of where they are on the minimap, and the fact that i was a victory, they must have gotten farther than the 2nd door. Fairly good progression and defense, but look at his teams kills compared to they enemy. The enemy had an average of 5 kills each, and his team had 3 healers who all did over 400k heals. Your guildie had only 1 death, so near 100% uptime. So yes, it still is incredibly impressive, I do not deny that, but remember this is a blue moon kind of game.

The huttball screenshot, the one that did actually have 1200 dps, I think more than proves my point. 525k damage, with 8 kills. Over 65k damage per kill. So again, impressive, but deceptively so.

So yes, Madness can do crazy things, as people like your guildie and mine like to prove. All I'm trying to say is don't fall into the trap that so many do, thinking it's all about the numbers on the board at the end. Often, the things that win games never show up on the board. But hey, I'd take a competent Madness player over 99% of the players I run into in this game Good luck figuring out Madness for yourself dude. Lets make em fear this class again.
Vesharia, Zannáh, Xeshara Retired due to broken class
Jetii'ka - Combat/Focus Bloodfrenzie - Carnage/Rage
Pot5/Bastion

RankorSSGS's Avatar


RankorSSGS
10.30.2012 , 06:03 PM | #35
Quote: Originally Posted by EatenByDistance View Post
You guys really can't rely on dps parsing for PvP, that's really dumb and it isn't even a good general/basic estimate of how a spec performs. If that were the case nobody would play 23/1/17 or Rage specs (one dummy in most parses=no Smash aoe etc).

That said, idk what was going on for the 12 second "burst" parse of 0/27/14. I averaged ~2200, much more than Xethis' parse.

And parsing anything more than that is a complete waste of time. I mean, seriously, are you ever going to dps every GCD for four minutes straight? You won't do that every 30 seconds. It's a complete waste of time and the data is irrelevant even if I got the same results. Parsing is one of the most pointless things you can do to judge PvP specs.

and no, I'm not being mean. Just because I'm using it to invalidate someone's idea doesn't mean I'm a dick or upset that not everybody agrees with my spec. It's a fact.
I totally agree with you about how irrelevant parses can be in a pvp environment. 100%. That's why I'm going to be running actual warzones with it, testing not the damage on a dummy, but how it actually plays out in the "real world." I only use dummies to work on practicing rotations. All I meant to say is that the numbers piqued my interest into looking into the spec again. And yea, I was thinking to myself that something must have been wrong with Xethis' parses of Wakajinn, its just way too low. Either way, actual pvp is where it matters, and that's where I'm going to be testing these specs for myself.
Vesharia, Zannáh, Xeshara Retired due to broken class
Jetii'ka - Combat/Focus Bloodfrenzie - Carnage/Rage
Pot5/Bastion

JP_Legatus's Avatar


JP_Legatus
10.30.2012 , 06:29 PM | #36
Lol, I wish that guy was in our guild. The thread started was my guildie but neither me nor him have topped 850 dps as far as I know.
And yeah they aren't Normal games, but none of the 1200 dps games or 1mil games are normal. That guy gets my props for even reaching those numbers as a sin.

We do have smashers in our guild that have done millions though and our lead assassin has gotten 25 medals I can only hope to reach those numbers and I'm going to have to try madness to do it.

RankorSSGS's Avatar


RankorSSGS
10.30.2012 , 06:43 PM | #37
Quote: Originally Posted by JP_Legatus View Post
Lol, I wish that guy was in our guild. The thread started was my guildie but neither me nor him have topped 850 dps as far as I know.
And yeah they aren't Normal games, but none of the 1200 dps games or 1mil games are normal. That guy gets my props for even reaching those numbers as a sin.

We do have smashers in our guild that have done millions though and our lead assassin has gotten 25 medals I can only hope to reach those numbers and I'm going to have to try madness to do it.
That pretty much is what I meant. Spectacular, and worthy of recognition, but far far away from normal. Imagine the QQ about Madness if these were normal games. I don't think I've ever ever seen a nerf Madness thread. And yea, due to the possibility of healing medals in addition to all the others, it is possible to get the most as Madness. Medal-wise, my current best is 20 as full Deception, in 1.3 of all times
Vesharia, Zannáh, Xeshara Retired due to broken class
Jetii'ka - Combat/Focus Bloodfrenzie - Carnage/Rage
Pot5/Bastion

Xethis's Avatar


Xethis
10.30.2012 , 11:31 PM | #38
Quote: Originally Posted by ComputerSaidNo View Post
But the MM spec isn't grabbing anything except for the +30% crit damage on maul that adds to it's burst. It can't take advantage of the shock buff from Induction because that requires you to be in surging charge. The other argument might be the extra force regen from dark embrace but with deathmark and calculating mind you shouldn't really be starved for force.

I feel that its sustained DPS would be lower than madness and its burst lower than deception (or deception based builds) and not far off from madness so I just can't see this spec as a competitor. But I haven't actually tested it so I'll reserve further judgement until I do
Yes the extra 30% crit damage is one aspect of going Mad Maul, 6k Maul crits are just fun as hell. But pls do not look at this as just trading Creeping Terror for Maul crit. Another huge aspect to choosing Mad Maul over full Madness is for the Darkswll talent which is the only reason Mad Maul can work in pvp. You have to be exploiting the hell out of Dark Embrace for the defensive bonus. Mad Maul pre 1.4 was as glass cannon as the Assassin could get with no armor buffs and very very little healing.

Now the reason that Mad Maul can out dps full Madness head to head is a couple of reason. First off, the 30% increased crit from Maul is not enough to overcome the damage from Creeping Terror alone, however it does leave room for another global (usually Thrash) per cycle. The dot from Discharge is also more damage then Creeping Terror and when Creeping Terror is not used it pretty much doubles the amount of Discharge ticks that can use Deathmarks.

Increased Deathmarks utilized on Discharge Dot, an extra Thrash per cycle, and the increased crit on Maul all add up to about 50-100 increase in overall dps over Madness.

Xethis's Avatar


Xethis
10.30.2012 , 11:41 PM | #39
Quote: Originally Posted by EatenByDistance View Post
That said, idk what was going on for the 12 second "burst" parse of 0/27/14. I averaged ~2200, much more than Xethis' parse.
and no, I'm not being mean. Just because I'm using it to invalidate someone's idea doesn't mean I'm a dick or upset that not everybody agrees with my spec. It's a fact.
I will try again this evening to see if I am doing anything wrong.

EatenByDistance's Avatar


EatenByDistance
10.31.2012 , 12:47 AM | #40
Quote: Originally Posted by Xethis View Post
I will try again this evening to see if I am doing anything wrong. When I parsed the opening 12 seconds with Wakajinn spec I very rarely saw 1700-1800, and my average was in the 1600's. I could be doing something wrong or you could just be that bad ***. If you can do 2200 with Wakajinn you should easily be able to clear 2400 with Mad Maul.
My parses on Mad Maul were about equal to yours lol. Again, its a useless measure though.
Wakalord The Bastion: Hey im mvp
Watch my stream!
Quote: Originally Posted by Xerain
...and the only person who doesn't think so is some B-team assassin DPS who is just dragging his team down by playing the incorrect spec.