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[PvP Guide] Wakaworld: Your resource for advanced Sith Assassin/Jedi Shadow strategy!

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Shadow / Assassin
[PvP Guide] Wakaworld: Your resource for advanced Sith Assassin/Jedi Shadow strategy!

Xethis's Avatar


Xethis
10.29.2012 , 08:20 PM | #21
I clip my dot all the time, there is so much cc, knock backs and kiting going on some times you have to clip your dot. When you get a Raze proc during a Crush dot, if you can manage it you should wait till the last tick before you refresh. Crushing Darkness only last 6 seconds and the Raze proc lasts about 15 seconds so you have plenty of time. And yes if you don't clip your Discharge dot you will get the max possible dps per cast. Sometimes I will clip that last tick or two if I know I got a lot to do and the Dot will fade before I have time to refresh. If I got EW and a Raze proc, I need to refresh my Deathmarks and or UK then I will clip early. Keeping that Dot rolling is far more dps then letting it fall off for 2-5 seconds. The dot itself is only a small part of the dps as a whole, what the dot does provide is chance to instant cast Crushing Darkness free of force. That ability is worth at least 3.5k if none of its back end dots crit, and a maximum of 7k if everything crits, via Recklessness and full set of Deathmarks. If the dot does stay off for 2-5 seconds, then it is just much time that you do not get a chance at Raze, and that is a huge part of the dps for MM.

RankorSSGS's Avatar


RankorSSGS
10.29.2012 , 08:38 PM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by Xethis View Post
I clip my dot all the time, there is so much cc, knock backs and kiting going on some times you have to clip your dot. When you get a Raze proc during a Crush dot, if you can manage it you should wait till the last tick before you refresh. Crushing Darkness only last 6 seconds and the Raze proc lasts about 15 seconds so you have plenty of time. And yes if you don't clip your Discharge dot you will get the max possible dps per cast. Sometimes I will clip that last tick or two if I know I got a lot to do and the Dot will fade before I have time to refresh. If I got EW and a Raze proc, I need to refresh my Deathmarks and or UK then I will clip early. Keeping that Dot rolling is far more dps then letting it fall off for 2-5 seconds. The dot itself is only a small part of the dps as a whole, what the dot does provide is chance to instant cast Crushing Darkness free of force. That ability is worth at least 3.5k if none of its back end dots crit, and a maximum of 7k if everything crits, via Recklessness and full set of Deathmarks. If the dot does stay off for 2-5 seconds, then it is just much time that you do not get a chance at Raze, and that is a huge part of the dps for MM.
Oh ok, that makes sense. I'm going to go back to MM again for a bit, and see if I can get these incredible results that you seem to be achieving. Now you are apparently doing something far different than I used to do when running MM, and even looking through your posting history, I cannot find what that might be. Again, maybe its sitting right in front of me and I'm somehow missing it So as far as I understand it, you open with DF, into a discharge, then into thrash spam. Using Crush and Maul whenever they proc. At some point you use shock for UK, when exactly should I be using it? Also, am I using shock off cd, or only enough to keep UK up? Blackout usage I'm also confused about. You say using it right after the first dark embrace is not ideal, ok. So what would you say is the ideal situation to be using it? When I'm force starved, and using it offensively, or when I'm being focused and using it as a defensive cd? Thanks again for all the help.

Squidkidz's Avatar


Squidkidz
10.29.2012 , 09:45 PM | #23
Sweet guide brah, very good points made in here. I love that you included the 31/1/9 spec because even though I haven't played this spec in a while, I played it for a solid few months straight and agree that it is still very useful despite the nerf that the the Force Lightning self-heal took a while back. I myself LOVE running the 0/27/14 spec, the damage is ridiculous and I can attest to the effectiveness (Wakajinn, nice you clever devil), as I have been keeping up with powertechs and maras in warzones using it. However, I still switch back to 23/1/17 for ranked for the reasons you stated and because that just happens to be the role my team relies on me to fill. I wanna tunnel vision dps like the maras too though

Also, stack more alacrity noob!
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Xethis's Avatar


Xethis
10.29.2012 , 10:07 PM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by RankorSSGS View Post
Oh ok, that makes sense. I'm going to go back to MM again for a bit, and see if I can get these incredible results that you seem to be achieving. Now you are apparently doing something far different than I used to do when running MM, and even looking through your posting history, I cannot find what that might be. Again, maybe its sitting right in front of me and I'm somehow missing it So as far as I understand it, you open with DF, into a discharge, then into thrash spam. Using Crush and Maul whenever they proc. At some point you use shock for UK, when exactly should I be using it? Also, am I using shock off cd, or only enough to keep UK up? Blackout usage I'm also confused about. You say using it right after the first dark embrace is not ideal, ok. So what would you say is the ideal situation to be using it? When I'm force starved, and using it offensively, or when I'm being focused and using it as a defensive cd? Thanks again for all the help.
Ya, that is basic rotation it just takes practice. When I started it I was horrible at it, but a few hours later I started getting it. What really helped was going into operations with it. The main reason I started using it was I wanted a spec that I could raid with and pvp with. I thought it would be off pace to the respective specs I was using, 23-1-17, 5-5-31. But what I found was I was actually starting to do better in both WZ's and raids. I started hitting the dummies pretty regularly changing up the rotations to see what abilities were needed and what not, leaving stuff out, putting stuff back in. I just started getting smooth with it. Its just a spec that takes some getting used to and alot of practice.

Oh I forgot to answer a question earlier, about the 7.5 second proc debuff and being able to refresh its 6 second cd. It can not proc itself with in 7.5 sec, but the buff lasts around 15 seconds. Most of the time that bad boy is getting launched on the next gobal, but there are a couple abilities that I like to sit a bit higher in priority, EW/Maul and Assassinate. Or if I am cc'd sometimes I cannot launch it right away, anyways if the buff hangs out for a few seconds before use then the debuff timer will expire before the dot from Crush has expired. Same thing happens with Exploit Weakness, cannot happen with in 9 seconds, but I have definitely used an EW/Maul and had EW proc again a few seconds later do to me not utilizing the initial buff right away.

Oh back to rotations. Always start with DF and then Discharge, their cooldowns are very close and you'll see that right when DF is off CD you can cast it just as the last tick of Discharge is activating, pretty much binding those two abilities together, so they get refreshed at the same time every time. This allows for you to not track two CD's, you track one and refresh two abilities. Some save DF for their Raze proc so that Crush will get full effect of Deathmarks. It don't hurt, but I found that sometimes I will sit with DF off CD and not being used, IMO it hurts my overall dps. Maul and Assassinate can proc Raze, so watch for it there too, not just on your Thrashes.

UK lasts for 20seconds, so Shock is not actually part of your rotation. But since you Thrash and Maul so many times it is beneficial to have UK up as much as possible, but Shock is by far the last on the priority list. The exception to this is during Dark Embrace. I cannot even come close to even getting less than 50% force when this buff is active. It is great time get an otherwise costly Shock off. In pve I will Shock only to refresh UK, in pvp I only Shock once and that is during my Dark Embrace phase as it wont come close to using my force pool. In pvp however I will not refresh for UK, Ill use Shock after I DF/Discharge then I forget the ability even exists.

Recklessness on Crush is sexy time! And if you can do your best to wait for another Raze for the other Reck buffs, don't waste it on Shock. DF will do more damage than Shock so if you can use your last Reck buff on DF.

In pve use Black Out on cd and even Force Cloak to keep it rolling, with this spec you don't really need the buff to do dps, but it does help as with the standard rotation I will find that I will need to Saber Strike a couple times per cycle. I would not however use Black Out right after my first Dark Embrace has expired, wait a few globals till you see your force bar going down, just before you use your first Saber Strike, hit Black Out as it will actually build your force pool quite a bit. After your first Dark Embrace you will definitely be very close to full force still, no need to pop it right away cause you can literally use any ability you need still. In pvp it is more situational. Its not bad practice to keep the buff up for your first 12 seconds if your being focused, but I find that I don't usually need the force for damage at this time and try to utilize it when my opponent is going to unleash hell if you will. If you find yourself topped off on force during Dark Embrace do not be afraid to Maul with out an EW proc. Typically this is a no no, but it will proc Raze and since force is not an issue it still does more overall damage than Thrash. It won't happen often but look for it if you can.

ComputerSaidNo's Avatar


ComputerSaidNo
10.30.2012 , 10:53 AM | #25
Can someone post a link to the MM spec? I'd like to test it out. Also, what are you aiming for regarding your stats with this spec?

EatenByDistance's Avatar


EatenByDistance
10.30.2012 , 12:18 PM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by ComputerSaidNo View Post
Can someone post a link to the MM spec? I'd like to test it out. Also, what are you aiming for regarding your stats with this spec?
http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#200ZfhbRzZcMcRrrkrM.2

Some of the stuff in Madness tree could sort of be moved around but I don't recommend it. Parasatism is better for full Madness where you'll take points in Charge Mastery. Oppressing Force is just kind of bad and the availability of dots in this game makes Corrupted Flesh more useful overall than Sith Defiance.

You'd still want to emphasize the same stuff you generally would in Deception based builds (i.e. lots of power). So just read the OP for that. Run Force Master bonus because healing on Crushing Darkness is pretty good and your Discharge crits don't proc off of Recklessness anyways.


While I still strongly disagree with arguments that Mad Maul is a competitive DPS spec - parsed numbers don't mean much of anything in PvP (and for what its worth my parses in 0/27/14 are much higher than yours were), the environment is just too volatile - you made your points well enough and if it works for you then more power to you I guess. I still strongly stand by the fact that the setup is too long but we all have our opinions and preferences so whatever.
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JP_Legatus's Avatar


JP_Legatus
10.30.2012 , 01:37 PM | #27
I actually saw a thread about assassin dps on here started by a guildie of mine, and the most assassin dps came from a madness (he had a 1mil+ game which I haven't seen an assassin do before, and 2 pics of about 1200 dps... The pics showed he had creeping terror on his bar).
I'm trying to figure out the real intricacies of madness now because 1200 dps is on par with the good smashers. The most I've had in any spec is about 800 so I'm really curious now to see how he gets it that high.

ComputerSaidNo's Avatar


ComputerSaidNo
10.30.2012 , 02:00 PM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by EatenByDistance View Post
http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#200ZfhbRzZcMcRrrkrM.2

Some of the stuff in Madness tree could sort of be moved around but I don't recommend it. Parasatism is better for full Madness where you'll take points in Charge Mastery. Oppressing Force is just kind of bad and the availability of dots in this game makes Corrupted Flesh more useful overall than Sith Defiance.

You'd still want to emphasize the same stuff you generally would in Deception based builds (i.e. lots of power). So just read the OP for that. Run Force Master bonus because healing on Crushing Darkness is pretty good and your Discharge crits don't proc off of Recklessness anyways.
Thanks for the link! Though I don't really see the benefit of this spec compared to a full madness build. From what I recall from earlier posts (correct me if I'm wrong) this spec runs in lightning charge so the only reason for grabbing induction and consequently surging charge from the deception tree is for the 30%+ crit damage from maul.

If I've missed something let me know because as I'm seeing it everything this spec does can be done better running full madness.

RankorSSGS's Avatar


RankorSSGS
10.30.2012 , 03:16 PM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by JP_Legatus View Post
I actually saw a thread about assassin dps on here started by a guildie of mine, and the most assassin dps came from a madness (he had a 1mil+ game which I haven't seen an assassin do before, and 2 pics of about 1200 dps... The pics showed he had creeping terror on his bar).
I'm trying to figure out the real intricacies of madness now because 1200 dps is on par with the good smashers. The most I've had in any spec is about 800 so I'm really curious now to see how he gets it that high.
The problem with Madness, either sorc or assassin, is that lots of it is "useless damage", meaning its not killing anyone. As a sorc, I can just spam FL all game, nothing else, and at the end of the game I will have top damage. And yet practically, sorc damage is very poor, because it is so easily healed through. Damage means absolutely nothing without kills, a 1 hp player can do just as much as a 19k hp player, as long as he keeps that 1 hp. That is the big gripe about maras/ sents god mode cd, it stops you from killing them, while they can still do full damage.

I suggest you go look again at that 1mil damage game, and look at the number of kills. I bet it will be very low. Even when smashers or pyro PT's get 1mil games, it is only because the game went on so long, because nobody was actually dying. And if nobody is dying, then all that damage is pointless. That is why burst is king, and why Deception based builds are so powerful. I may not top damage, often I'll sit around 200-250k in an average game with my current gear. But when I'm unloading that damage, my target is going to go down. I'll use a CW from the other day I had. I was playing with some random juggernaut who had a pocket healer. The enemy had both sides, we had the middle, so the jugg and his healer go to snow, and spend the rest of the game there, and never ever capped snow back. At the end of the match, that jugg was top damage, but because he never actually got anywhere in terms of capping the node, it was all pointless. He also had a super low kill count alongside that damage. Now, I do not know exactly what he was doing, but the few times I got the chance to look over, he was beating on someone, who was just laughing at him, because they had a healer who was easily healing through that damage. Does being top damage make the jugg a good player? In this case, absolutely not! I had much lower damage, roughly 1/3rd of his, but I had approximately double his kills. Why? Because my Deception burst was actually killing people, and fast enough for us to get a node back. That is useful damage.

As for how your madness assassin got that much damage, I do have a theory. I'm not claiming this is actually what he did, but doing that much damage causes me to automatically think Discharge spam. Target an enemy, Discharge your 18 sec DoT on him, tab target to another guy, and repeat. Put that 18 sec DoT on every enemy you can. Similar to FL spamming sorcs, you will do a ton of damage, but its all wasted into scoreboard padding, and your allies will have to pick up the slack of effectively playing a man down. Good way to lose a match, even if you get top damage. I'll take burst builds that actually kill people any day. Now of course Madness can actually kill people. While not super, stacking multiple DoTs on a target combined with thrash and DF can do decent burst, and played smartly, sure a Madness assassin can utterly destroy people. I've got a guildmate that does it everyday. But even he swaps to Deception for ranked game, because of the burst. The idea of the Mad Maul spec is to get the sustained damage of Madness, but grabbing enough Deception talents to give it really good burst as well. I'm still working on improving my performance in the spec, but based off Xethis' points, it has the potential.

ComputerSaidNo's Avatar


ComputerSaidNo
10.30.2012 , 03:51 PM | #30
Quote:
The idea of the Mad Maul spec is to get the sustained damage of Madness, but grabbing enough Deception talents to give it really good burst as well. I'm still working on improving my performance in the spec, but based off Xethis' points, it has the potential.
But the MM spec isn't grabbing anything except for the +30% crit damage on maul that adds to it's burst. It can't take advantage of the shock buff from Induction because that requires you to be in surging charge. The other argument might be the extra force regen from dark embrace but with deathmark and calculating mind you shouldn't really be starved for force.

I feel that its sustained DPS would be lower than madness and its burst lower than deception (or deception based builds) and not far off from madness so I just can't see this spec as a competitor. But I haven't actually tested it so I'll reserve further judgement until I do
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